Phuket airplane crash!!!!

[Loburt]

Airline defends pilot of ill-fated flight

(BangkokPost.com) ? Chairman of One-Two-Go airline, Kajit Hapananont, spoke out to defend the pilot of the ill-fated McDonnell Douglas MD-82 passenger liner which crashed while landing in Phuket, killing 89 people on Sunday, saying he ?was not hot-headed by character and had plenty of aviation experience under his belt.?

He also lashed out at speculation of pilot error.

?There was no way of knowing in advance what sort of obstacles lay ahead for any pilot. What do people who have reached their own conclusions on the crash use as facts on which to base their presumptions on? The black boxes are still here and have yet to be sent to the United States for experts to examine.?

?I urge everyone to wait for an official announcement to be made before pointing fingers.?

Yesterday transport authorities said bad weather was probably the main factor in the crash at Phuket airport, but pilot error has still not been ruled out. The pilot, 56-year-old Arief Mulyadi, who also died in the crash, was Indonesian.

?The reason why more than half of our pilots are non-Thais is because not very many can fly an MD plane. We are the only company using this type of aircraft, and that?s why we employ several Indonesian pilots because they have lots of MD?s there.?

?The pilot who flew the doomed aircraft was one of our best. He was very experienced, patient and very decisive.?

[sunsnow]

Viewer discretion adviced. Strong content. Swedes guys filmed actual footage after the crash.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bGIDlqNylJw

(OT: interesting use of Google Earth data! All and all...freaky three examples of modern technology together - sharing in Youtube, using Google Earth data for news and then the amount of videorecorders around us...)

[Loburt]

Yes, interesting follow up. And in fact I just wrote a story for a travel industry magazine on the human resources shortage.

It didn't really deal much with airlines and airports, but a travel industry expert mentioned during one interview that worldwide there is a shortage of something like 8,000 air traffic controllers.

Travel and tourism is booming as an industry, but for a variety of reasons there just aren't enough well-trained people to fill the jobs.

And they expect that situation to worsen over the next several years.

[Loburt]

Interesting the guy mention that he would be travelling there with representatives of the insurers.

I wonder what value the company placed on the Loss of Life.

Well, "the guy" also said they would pay the maximum amount and that taking care of the injured and the families of the victims was the first concern.

The laws on these things are pretty backwards here, but whatever the law is, the law is.

If this was a bad call by air traffic controllers, should the AOT pay also? Should the airline have to pay at all?

I think we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions about anything or anyone until we at least know exactly what caused the crash.

[Loburt]

The laws on these things are pretty backwards here, but whatever the law is, the law is.

In actual fact, the laws on these things here are based upon English law and are far from backwards.

However, the sum insured here is a fraction of what it might be back home.

Well, the value of most companies here and what people earn here are also a fraction of what it might be back home.

But I think if you look at a lot of laws here where compensation or fines are involved, you will see that these amounts were fixed ages ago, and so today seem pretty backwards or ridiculously low even by local standards.

[Loburt]

Just read that the Pilot was informed about powerful wind cast before landing due to 2 Pilots on a previous landing did report dramatically wind changes during landing

So, the basic questions remain:

Was the pilot up to the job?

Was the plane up to the job?

Were the air traffic controllers up to the job?

Should planes be allowed to land in those types of conditions?

Are planes allowed to land in those types of conditions in other places (Horizonte says they are not)?

Someone who was on one of those two earlier flights told CNN it was the most violent landing he had even been through.

[grezzzy_greer]

.....Though it was settled at 1 million for each child (the shopping mall putting the outstanding amount to), I think at the time it equated to about 15,000 quid each.

I can imagine the disgust a benificiary would feel back in EU or US or wherever if they were to be offered such a paltry sum in compensation for the loss of their loved one.

I know that there is a valid argument for "compensation" where a breadwinner is killed or hurt, but how can any sum of money compensate the parents for the loss of a child?

I know it is impossible to separate the two kinds of claims, and that of course we would not trivialise the loss of a child by saying that there is no point in claiming for a fee for the life of a child, but as a parent, I could not ever consider what value I could expect to be put on the lives of my children.

The thought is absolutely repellent to me.

And if I was given money in return for their lives, could I ever bring myself to use it for anything?

It would be the real and physical representation of the childs life, of the value placed on their lives, their entire future, as determined by someone who doesn't even know them...

Would any sum ever be enough...no...I don't think so...a childs life, even more so than that of an adult...is priceless...we can never know their worth, if such a thing was possible in any case...until they have lived their life...and we look back and take stock, evaluating everything they have done for the world, for the community, for their family...every breath they breathed, every little act no matter how small has a value, a worth...and I don't think it can be equated to the trading devices which we invented...

I do want those responsible for any loss of life to know and feel in some small measure, the loss felt by those relatives and loved ones of those who have been killed, and in the corporate world, perhaps the only loss a company will ever understand is financial, but I have no idea how to set the value of a human life.

Rest in peace.

[Loburt]

I do want those responsible for any loss of life to know and feel in some small measure, the loss felt by those relatives and loved ones of those who have been killed, and in the corporate world, perhaps the only loss a company will ever understand is financial, but I have no idea how to set the value of a human life.

Rest in peace.

I don't think anybody really knows how to set the value on a human life, which is why no matter how callous or how well intentioned the "corporation" may be in dealing with that issue, they are going to be accused of thinking only in financial terms.

Corporations still consist of people. I would be very surprised if the owner of Orient Thai does not feel anguish over 90 people being killed on one of his flights.

Yes, there are heartless executives in this world, but that doesn't mean everyone loses their humanity once they start a company or receive a promotion.

Even if he were only thinking in business terms, you would think he must realize that to show any lack of concern for the victims or "stinginess" will only further hurt, if not completely ruin, his business.

[Loburt]

.....Though it was settled at 1 million for each child (the shopping mall putting the outstanding amount to), I think at the time it equated to about 15,000 quid each.

I can imagine the disgust a benificiary would feel back in EU or US or wherever if they were to be offered such a paltry sum in compensation for the loss of their loved one.

I know that there is a valid argument for "compensation" where a breadwinner is killed or hurt, but how can any sum of money compensate the parents for the loss of a child?

Sin sod?

We can always count on you for a callous and contempt-filled comment. I'll bet you're proud of yourself, too. *****.

[Loburt]

Your relentless insulting and disgusting comments are a provocation.

[CiaranM]

.....Though it was settled at 1 million for each child (the shopping mall putting the outstanding amount to), I think at the time it equated to about 15,000 quid each.

I can imagine the disgust a benificiary would feel back in EU or US or wherever if they were to be offered such a paltry sum in compensation for the loss of their loved one.

I know that there is a valid argument for "compensation" where a breadwinner is killed or hurt, but how can any sum of money compensate the parents for the loss of a child?

Sin sod?

We can always count on you for a callous and contempt-filled comment. I'll bet you're proud of yourself, too. c*nt.

Loburt, stop trying to be a nice guy.

If this moderator system really worked even-handedly, you would get a yellow card for repeated unprovoked personal attacks right now.

Can a real moderator explain why this is not happening?

i'm not a mod ..... but i'm guessing it is because u r a ***** !!!!

therefore it is a statement of fact and not a personal attack !!!

[Andy_bkk]

abortions, yellow cards, plane crashs and ***** - interesting mix of topics

[robbie36]

I hope there isnt a whitewash and Thailand takes a long hard look at its budget carriers...

1. Was the plane up to it?

Well Ammy and Horizante might not think that 24 years is old for an aircraft but then how old is old? Look at the age profile of the Thai Airways fleet - average 10.4 years, no planes older than 18 years. And theirs is by no means a young fleet - simply look up Singapore Airlines or British Airways.

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Thai%20Airways.htm

Thai Airways sells, scraps or retires its fleet at 16-18 years. If they dont take customers on 24 year old planes maybe they have a good reason.

Which of course leads to a whole host of questions? Mechanical fault? Would a younger plane be better equipped for the conditions? Would a younger plane have handled the conditions better? And would a more modern plane have withstood the hard landing better?

2. Were the pilots up to it?

Well we have an Indonesian pilot.... that raises worries for a start. Indonesian pilots are the cheapest in the world. Indonesian airlines - all 51 of them - have been banned by the EU from flying in Europe. Orienthai/1-2-go has come in for a roasting from PPRUNE the (professional pilots rumour network) who have told tales about how 1-2-go has recruited Indo pilots to save costs. It appears that Mr Ariff was one of the more experienced - supposedly he was chief of 1-2-go pilots - and yet he only became a commercial pilot after retiring from the Indonesian airforce. K.Montri, the co-pilot, had according to the Nation, resigned from 1-2-go to take up a position as a 'trainee' at Thai. I dread to think about the qualifications of 1-2-gos other pilots.

3. How do the financial constraints of budget airlines put pressure on pilots? Finally, just how much pressure is the captain under to land at Phuket rather than to divert to Krabi? You see that rather old MD 82 was doing 6 return trips a day between bangkok and phuket. If it had diverted to Krabi it would have ruined the schedule for at least half a dozen 1-2-go flights. Perhaps with that in mind he thought he would take a chance.

So I guess the question is whether it really was an 'accident' or whether some budget airlines are just accidents waiting to happen?

[robbie36]

A 24 year old aircraft is not as bad as it sounds. Aircraft are on cycles of landings and engine hours time. It could be a high time or a low time aircraft.

A 24 year old car with 5,000 miles is not the same as a 24 year old car with 240,000 miles.

As I understand it had had over 64,000 hours use (around 7 hours a day), had well over 30,000 cycles.

Now my guess is this plane has done about 20 million miles which is pretty impressive. I'm impressed I just dont want to pay good money to travel in the thing.

[Loburt]

Well that is some interesting information related to questions 1 and 2, and you've raised some questions we raised earlier. But you are completely ignoring all the other questions.

You haven't even addressed the fact that in many countries landings under those conditions simply are not allowed.

It's not left up to a pilot (no matter his nationality) or a carrier (no matter how cost or profit conscious they may or may not be).

Those are simply regarded as conditions that are not safe enough to land in and air traffic controllers would automatically tell the plane to divert to another airport.

But not here in Thailand.

There are a host of questions related to this, and some accusations that could be made (but which would not be fair at this point in time) but you're just ignoring them. It's like you've decided already. Without knowing all the facts.

[zeusbheld]

.....Though it was settled at 1 million for each child (the shopping mall putting the outstanding amount to), I think at the time it equated to about 15,000 quid each.

I can imagine the disgust a benificiary would feel back in EU or US or wherever if they were to be offered such a paltry sum in compensation for the loss of their loved one.

I know that there is a valid argument for "compensation" where a breadwinner is killed or hurt, but how can any sum of money compensate the parents for the loss of a child?

Sin sod?

We can always count on you for a callous and contempt-filled comment. I'll bet you're proud of yourself, too. c*nt.

Loburt, stop trying to be a nice guy.

If this moderator system really worked even-handedly, you would get a yellow card for repeated unprovoked personal attacks right now.

Can a real moderator explain why this is not happening?

****** moderator note ******

firstly, the "moderator system" doesn't CARE if you think it really works even-handedly, and doesn't really make any pretense of operating any other way except capriciously and spitefully, 'coz that's just how we roll.

secondly, the explanation is simple: "moderator system" doesn't spend all day and all night babysitting, merely tests the poolwater every now and then to figure out which of you clowns is pissing in it. the reason this was allowed to continue is that no one was watching.

thirdly, given that miss ciaran and miss loburt have a better disciplinary record than the moderator making the judgment, there will be no cards, just a warning that regardless of how they feel about what someone says, or how provocative, callous, etc to restrain themselves from name calling etc. however, next time two cards for the price of one if it continues.

fourthly, given that i'm generally the only one paying attention, and given that i am a) capricious mean spirited and c) generally spiteful, and d) spiteful, or did i say that already and e) i curse enough to make a ***** blush, in my opinion the 'attacks' in question would have to be considerably more persistent to warrant a card. if this doesn't seem fair to you, you may have a tissue and cry it out. i have been reasonably consistent about this (weighted, of course, for a through e)

so for now, only a warning. play nice though ladies. remember a-d, you most likely won't get the reacharound next time.

in case all that was too wordy, keep it more civil than you have been or cards *will* follow.

*******end moderator note *******

[robbie36]

You haven't even addressed the fact that in many countries landings under those conditions simply are not allowed.

Fair point... there are clearly questions to be asked about the control tower...

Its an interesting question because I can tell you that it was just another monsoon day in Phuket. There was nothing friekish about the conditions. I simply have no idea how much those squalls effect the day to day operations of airliners. Maybe the control tower regularly tells them to 'go around'. I simply have no idea.

I do know that Phuket is a pretty well equipped airport though...

[paulgh3rd]

You haven't even addressed the fact that in many countries landings under those conditions simply are not allowed.

Fair point... there are clearly questions to be asked about the control tower...

Its an interesting question because I can tell you that it was just another monsoon day in Phuket. There was nothing friekish about the conditions. I simply have no idea how much those squalls effect the day to day operations of airliners. Maybe the control tower regularly tells them to 'go around'. I simply have no idea.

I do know that Phuket is a pretty well equipped airport though...

maybe but to short of a runway has been a complaint for years and even caused a pilot strike before

[zeusbheld]

You haven't even addressed the fact that in many countries landings under those conditions simply are not allowed.

Fair point... there are clearly questions to be asked about the control tower...

Its an interesting question because I can tell you that it was just another monsoon day in Phuket. There was nothing friekish about the conditions. I simply have no idea how much those squalls effect the day to day operations of airliners. Maybe the control tower regularly tells them to 'go around'. I simply have no idea.

I do know that Phuket is a pretty well equipped airport though...

maybe but to short of a runway has been a complaint for years and even caused a pilot strike before

if the diagram on the tv news was accurate, this particular plane didnt' make it the length of the runway.

[sunsnow]

On a Finnish newspaper forum some Finn living in Phuket told that to him it looked like it had skidded off the runway after first one km of the airstrip length.

[GoldMember]

On a Finnish newspaper forum some Finn living in Phuket told that to him it looked like it had skidded off the runway after first one km of the airstrip length.

Very few pages on those Finnish newspapers.

i think it was a special supplement.....with a bogroll depicting the length of runway attached to the backpage.Once read on the latrine - it's then recycled.Those crafty Finns never miss a trick.

[i_love_som_tam]

You haven't even addressed the fact that in many countries landings under those conditions simply are not allowed.

Fair point... there are clearly questions to be asked about the control tower...

Its an interesting question because I can tell you that it was just another monsoon day in Phuket. There was nothing friekish about the conditions. I simply have no idea how much those squalls effect the day to day operations of airliners. Maybe the control tower regularly tells them to 'go around'. I simply have no idea.

I do know that Phuket is a pretty well equipped airport though...

from all that i have heard... the pilot attempted to land, but, before he was wheels down, radioed the tower and said he was aborting the landing. as he attempted to gain altitude the plane was slammed onto the runway where control of the aircraft was lost. as i mentioned before, at the time of the accident, there were gale force winds and heavy rain. they came from out of no where. one minute calm, the next minute wild. maybe u could call that "nothing freakish" but it was pretty wild and i was outside, not in a building.

how well equipped is the airport? do they have radar to advise on the potentiality of wind shears? u seem to be more informed than I. enlighten me please.

[sunsnow]

3 out of airports wind detectors out of working condition.

"Half of the systems to detect potentially dangerous wind shear were not working at the time of a crash at a Phuket airport that killed 89 people on board, officials said Tuesday. 41 passengers survived."

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=70634

Robert Borland, one hell of an unlucky AND lucky guy. Survived both tsunami and this plane crash.

Finn language link

And as said, the 1km/3km/plane not landing not failing and going too long was from net discussion and as such should be treated as any "information" going thru currently before official investigation results (if not they are too much influenced by CNS blurbs how anything that might hurt Thai reputation should be avoided etc rulings....) (the same fella has some interesting opinions actually about Thai airways fleet, Star Alliance companies preferring getting their planes fixed in general outside Thailand, and in general the push to keep costs undercontrol and how much it would have cost to land to Krabi instead.

[robbie36]

how well equipped is the airport? do they have radar to advise on the potentiality of wind shears? u seem to be more informed than I. enlighten me please.

Certainly...

The link below shows that Phuket is fitted with the same 'wind shear detection system' as Bangkok and a whole host of other of other international airports.

As I said Phuket appears fairly well equipped for a regional airport (only hope they know how to use the equipment).

http://www.sigmet.com/products/installedsystems

[robbie36]

From what I gather the pilot chose to land in known wind shear conditions...

...implying pilot error/dodgy plane or a combination thereof...

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20070918/tts-uk-thailand-plane-ca02f96_2.html