Drugs? What way forward?

[Jay7]

Pam just bought me these......

......... mmmmmmmmm

Those tetra packs make great pipes.

[GM]

Marijuana should be decriminalized. As in, "offenders" would receive a ticket, much like a speeding ticket, if they get caught with weed.

It would be much better to give the government a bit of money rather than have the government spend money to have potheads locked up.

my two grams.

A few years ago I found out that my ex brother-in-law is a medical marijuana dealer in California. I was told that he is making $200k per year distributing to the various "clinics" in northern california. Not bad for a barely literate idiotic moron that flunked out of highschool and has never been able to keep a steady job in his life! ...great work if you can get it!! lol

[English_Bob]

Two good friends of mine were big time coke dealers. One has retired, the other is still walking the tightrope.

Both were amazed at how easy it was/is and how much money they made.

The one who is still working left school at 15 and is a pleasant lunatic. He really shouldn't be handing out drugs. That should be done by a qualified professional who can offer advice on use and abuse...

I don't use any illegal drugs myself, but my work puts me in connection with a lot of people who do use regularly.

All of them hold down jobs and make good money- they HAVE to... it's not cheap!

They choose to spend their free time using recreational drugs. Some are cool, smart people, some are assholes... much the same as the non-users I've met.

Me? I'm a big believer in personal choice. We allow people to drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes despite the dangers. We allow people to scuba dive, handglide and parachute jump from perfectly-operating aircraft.

All of these activities have risks... why are some drugs singled out and others encouraged?

If people want to use drugs, we should let 'em. If they get f#cked up, it's their own problem. Just the same as we do with fat bastards at McDonalds.

[Stramash]

Some great points from everyone thanks.

To put things in some sort of 'harm' context, especially in relation to the legal drugs of alcohol and tobacco, here is a list of UK drug deaths for 2006.

Remember, if you sit and say drugs are evil , then go out for a drink, or if you smoke cigarettes, thne you are a hypocrite, as these 2 substances are the worst drugs available!!

Alcohol - 8,758

Heroin/morphine ? 713

Cocaine 190

Methadone ? 241

All Amphetamines ? 92

Mdma/ecstasy - 48

Paracetomol and compounds ? 309

GHB 7

All benzodiazepines ? 177

Temazepam 42

Diazepam 89

Nitrazepam 8

Zopiclone/ Zolpidem ? 39

Barbiturates - 17

All antidepressants ? 336

Tobacco (approximately) 46,000

[beej]

Some of those figures are pretty high if thats just for a calender year?

[Desmodronic]

People do often claim that (hard) drugs should be banned because of the harm they do.

Now my question is .. what kind of harm are we talking about?

1. death of the user?

That one's relatively mild as we can see from the figures posted above me.

2. other medical harm to the user?

I actually don't care much if someone wants to smoke/snort/inject themselves to oblivion. As with smokers and alcohol use .. it's your body, do with it as you please :-)

3. the harm to society

I do believe in that one .. crime, medical costs, the utter and total uselessness of a drug addict to society

Shouldn't a society be permitted to arm itself against such harm?

[Stramash]

Some of those figures are pretty high if thats just for a calender year?

All figures are accurate and pretty normal - come from National Statistics Office

Only one that is approximated is tobacco as there are so many assocsiated illnesses from smoking that they can only estimate the number (and that figure came from Caner Research UK)

Which ones surprised you Chris??

[beej]

Some of those figures are pretty high if thats just for a calender year?

All figures are accurate and pretty normal - come from National Statistics Office

Only one that si approximated is tobacco as there are so many assocsiated illnesses from smoking that they can only estimate the number (and that figure came from Caner Research UK)

Which ones surprised you Chris??

Cocaine 190

Mdma/ecstasy - 48

Temazepam 42

Diazepam 89

[Stramash]

People do often claim that (hard) drugs should be banned because of the harm they do.

Now my question is .. what kind of harm are we talking about?

1. death of the user?

That one's relatively mild as we can see from the figures posted above me.

2. other medical harm to the user?

I actually don't care much if someone wants to smoke/snort/inject themselves to oblivion. As with smokers and alcohol use .. it's your body, do with it as you please :-)

3. the harm to society

I do believe in that one .. crime, medical costs, the utter and total uselessness of a drug addict to society

Shouldn't a society be permitted to arm itself against such harm?

Hard drugs are banned mate...

You summed up most of the harms well there though.

Of course the biggest harm is harms to society...though disagree on your statement of utter and total uselessness to society of the drug addict.

It has been proven again and again, that if approached and treated in right way (such as current Swiss system) an addict can still contribute to society.

Also, the Swiss system and the one I support) costs less to society than prison, police time, insurance costs rising.

But we are meant also to be a caring society so should not give up on these people (and remember they have families who suffer too)

There was an experiment done in Liverpool at the end of the 80's - for 12 months, registered addcits were given their heroin and cocaine from the NHS.

Over that period...crime fell 700% not 20%, 30% but 700%, an amazingly huge fall!!!

If we did that nationwide, we would have enough money saved from police and court time and all the insurance rises that we could have addcition centres in every town and still have money left to build hospitals and schools!!!!

[Stramash]

Some of those figures are pretty high if thats just for a calender year?

All figures are accurate and pretty normal - come from National Statistics Office

Only one that si approximated is tobacco as there are so many assocsiated illnesses from smoking that they can only estimate the number (and that figure came from Caner Research UK)

Which ones surprised you Chris??

Cocaine 190

Mdma/ecstasy - 48

Temazepam 42

Diazepam 89

Mmmm, would say the only one that surprised me was ecstasy, but it wasnt quoted as soul cause of death...often joint.

Cocaine - no real surprise with drop in prices etc

Tem/diazepam - benzodiazapenes are not only the most abused prescription drugs, but are also illicitly used by many addicts in addition to crack or heroin.

We even got one warning from our Cambridge office that addcits had started mixing heroin and rohypnol in their area!!!

[luckyphil247]

I believe in prohibition, otherwise you'd be taking away all the fun and adventure that comes with "scoring" illicit drugs

[Stramash]

I believe in prohibition, otherwise you'd be taking away all the fun and adventure that comes with "scoring" illicit drugs

yes, there's nothing like wandering into the scariest part of town where even the toddlers have knives and the dogs have asbos, to try and score something thats been cut with scouring powder or smuggled in up an Albanian's bum, then trying to get home in the grip of the abject paranoia that the police may do a spot check and you end up being some lifer's ***** for 12 months...

[eagle]

Too many people are getting rich with illegal drugs. Its money money money all comes back to that.

[Stramash]

Too many people are getting rich with illegal drugs. Its money money money all comes back to that.

and how many are getting rich with legal drugs??

Its a commodity, and even if regulated or legalised, people will be making money. Difference will be, at least it wont be going into putting guns on the streets or trafficking people across borders...

[eagle]

Too many people are getting rich with illegal drugs. Its money money money all comes back to that.

and how many are getting rich with legal drugs??

Its a commodity, and even if regulated or legalised, people will be making money. Difference will be, at least it wont be going into putting guns on the streets or trafficking people across borders...

Of course but right now the people who are making the money are in power and can keep it going as is. Politicians on the take need to be removed. And then the Military people who are on the take need to be removed. Then the police etc. Lots of money involved and thats whats keep change from happening.

[PJack]

It was precisely just such "war on drugs" type of programs instituted by government that cause innovation and huge improvement in product quality.

When Reagan announced he was closing the borders and going after the Mexican gangs (and other foreigners) who were importing the Acapulco Gold into US in early 1980's the result was a massive increase in domestic production. Furthermore, the hybrids produced from high quality seed during this time resulted in stunning weed that was much different from that seen in early 1980's.Americans saw such crowd pleasers as Lambs Breath which was produced in Hawaii and the standard of the mid 1980's classic: Humbolt Green.

If you enjoy high quality smoke you should thank the US government and the American spirit of innovation.

[eagle]

It was precisely just such "war on drugs" type of programs instituted by government that cause innovation and huge improvement in product quality.

When Reagan announced he was closing the borders and going after the Mexican gangs (and other foreigners) who were importing the Acapulco Gold into US in early 1980's the result was a massive increase in domestic production. Furthermore, the hybrids produced from high quality seed during this time resulted in stunning weed that was much different from that seen in early 1980's.Americans saw such crowd pleasers as Lambs Breath which was produced in Hawaii and the standard of the mid 1980's classic: Humbolt Green.

If you enjoy high quality smoke you should thank the US government and the American spirit of innovation.

Unfortunately while we were waiting for the domestic crop to mature Crack became the only thing to smoke in 1987 and quickly became the new drug war darling with scary crack babies the government warlords rally cry. Crack is still a plague of the cities of the US. Thank the US Government for this also :twisted:

[BrianAZ]

It was precisely just such "war on drugs" type of programs instituted by government that cause innovation and huge improvement in product quality.

When Reagan announced he was closing the borders and going after the Mexican gangs (and other foreigners) who were importing the Acapulco Gold into US in early 1980's the result was a massive increase in domestic production. Furthermore, the hybrids produced from high quality seed during this time resulted in stunning weed that was much different from that seen in early 1980's.Americans saw such crowd pleasers as Lambs Breath which was produced in Hawaii and the standard of the mid 1980's classic: Humbolt Green.

If you enjoy high quality smoke you should thank the US government and the American spirit of innovation.

Unfortunately while we were waiting for the domestic crop to mature Crack became the only thing to smoke in 1987 and quickly became the new drug war darling with scary crack babies the government warlords rally cry. Crack is still a plague of the cities of the US. Thank the US Government for this also :twisted:

Crack is bad, but meth is worse because it can be made cheap and made while driving a car.

[eagle]

It was precisely just such "war on drugs" type of programs instituted by government that cause innovation and huge improvement in product quality.

When Reagan announced he was closing the borders and going after the Mexican gangs (and other foreigners) who were importing the Acapulco Gold into US in early 1980's the result was a massive increase in domestic production. Furthermore, the hybrids produced from high quality seed during this time resulted in stunning weed that was much different from that seen in early 1980's.Americans saw such crowd pleasers as Lambs Breath which was produced in Hawaii and the standard of the mid 1980's classic: Humbolt Green.

If you enjoy high quality smoke you should thank the US government and the American spirit of innovation.

Unfortunately while we were waiting for the domestic crop to mature Crack became the only thing to smoke in 1987 and quickly became the new drug war darling with scary crack babies the government warlords rally cry. Crack is still a plague of the cities of the US. Thank the US Government for this also :twisted:

Crack is bad, but meth is worse because it can be made cheap and made while driving a car.

Meth sucks too , addiction sucks too but what really sucks is the Phoney war to stop it. More harm then good is coming from the Billions they spend. They just make the illegal market more lucrative and its the greed thats drives the market.

And while they are supposedly fighting the drug scrurge they are putting thousands of non violent pot smokers in prison. Many not more then kids.

[Stramash]

Off on a slight tangent, but still relevant, I found this posted on the wonderfully funny Christian website www.raptureready.com

Websites are targeting children with "digital drugs". They sell audio files which consist of binaural beats, which must be used with head phones and play different sounds in each ear. They are not in and of themselves "music" but sound waves designed to induce drug-like effects, and they can be embedded into music. Various "services" are provided, depending on the website, but among them are binaural beats made to mimic the effects of alcohol, marijuana, LSD, crack, heroin, and some are even supposed to simulate sexual desire, heaven and hell. A Duke University study suggests that binaural beats can affect mood and motor performance.

[Hobbes]

Uhh...ohh...I knew it all along there is the Deeevviiiiilll in MP3's...and all of them modern...well, noise some of thee misguided like to call 'music'... :twisted:

As an aside Ian, what were you doing looking at such potty-headed religious nut-job website??? :shock: :shock: :shock:

Where you completely smacked and s**t-faced when surfing haphazardly and erratic when you came across this pearl of wisdom?? :twisted: :wink:

[Stramash]

Uhh...ohh...I knew it all along there is the Deeevviiiiilll in MP3's...and all of them modern...well, noise some of thee misguided like to call 'music'... :twisted:

As an aside Ian, what were you doing looking at such potty-headed religious nut-job website??? :shock: :shock: :shock:

Where you completely smacked and s**t-faced when surfing haphazardly and erratic when you came across this pearl of wisdom?? :twisted: :wink:

know thine enemy... :twisted:

they also have a rapture index that shows the current likelihood of rapture due to natural disasters (sorry signs from god), anti-christ appearances etc.

Apparently the rapture is close...damned close...

repent thy sins for the end is nigh...

[Stramash]

I do indeed, but am a relatively light smoker and also monitor my weekly alcohol units.

When I pulled those figures from statistics office, they even shocked me. Expected higher fatalities, but not THAT high!!

But the point is; the substances we villify and persecute people for using only kill a fraction of those we glamourise (certainly still with alcohol and used to with tobacco) allow to be legal, and make billions from tax in.

[PeeMarc]

Some great points from everyone thanks.

To put things in some sort of 'harm' context, especially in relation to the legal drugs of alcohol and tobacco, here is a list of UK drug deaths for 2006.

Remember, if you sit and say drugs are evil , then go out for a drink, or if you smoke cigarettes, thne you are a hypocrite, as these 2 substances are the worst drugs available!!

Alcohol - 8,758

Heroin/morphine ? 713

Cocaine 190

Methadone ? 241

All Amphetamines ? 92

Mdma/ecstasy - 48

Paracetomol and compounds ? 309

GHB 7

All benzodiazepines ? 177

Temazepam 42

Diazepam 89

Nitrazepam 8

Zopiclone/ Zolpidem ? 39

Barbiturates - 17

All antidepressants ? 336

Tobacco (approximately) 46,000

I have seen similar numbers to these before mate. But theres one glaring problem with this comparison. Only fags and alcohol are available at every corner store and are widely used. Imagine if all the others were marketed and sold in the same way. Then there would be a real comparison here. Agree totally that our system laws hypocritical and madness to allow usage and make obscene piles of tax cash from tobacco and alcohol, while making other drugs illegal and clogging up the system. On the other hand, i cant yet see any clear or simple answer to the problem. Perhaps it is not a legal issue at all, but rather a society attitude and education issue. But one thing that continues to perpetuate it all (like so many other harmful things in our world) is the core issue of money and greed.

[eagle]

Some great points from everyone thanks.

To put things in some sort of 'harm' context, especially in relation to the legal drugs of alcohol and tobacco, here is a list of UK drug deaths for 2006.

Remember, if you sit and say drugs are evil , then go out for a drink, or if you smoke cigarettes, thne you are a hypocrite, as these 2 substances are the worst drugs available!!

Alcohol - 8,758

Heroin/morphine ? 713

Cocaine 190

Methadone ? 241

All Amphetamines ? 92

Mdma/ecstasy - 48

Paracetomol and compounds ? 309

GHB 7

All benzodiazepines ? 177

Temazepam 42

Diazepam 89

Nitrazepam 8

Zopiclone/ Zolpidem ? 39

Barbiturates - 17

All antidepressants ? 336

Tobacco (approximately) 46,000

I have seen similar numbers to these before mate. But theres one glaring problem with this comparison. Only fags and alcohol are available at every corner store and are widely used. Imagine if all the others were marketed and sold in the same way. Then there would be a real comparison here. Agree totally that our system laws hypocritical and madness to allow usage and make obscene piles of tax cash from tobacco and alcohol, while making other drugs illegal and clogging up the system. On the other hand, i cant yet see any clear or simple answer to the problem. Perhaps it is not a legal issue at all, but rather a society attitude and education issue. But one thing that continues to perpetuate it all (like so many other harmful things in our world) is the core issue of money and greed.

decriminalization would at least take the profits out of the illegal game which causes the violence. And keep people out of prison for stupid reasons. Prison has become big buisness and that is fueling the problem. Slavery is back big time !