Closing Suvanabhumi Airport b/c of PAD

[Loburt]

I tend to think it's the latter. The police have never been fans of the PAD and the army chief has had his tensions with them too.

No one wants to be Suchinda - especially for those guys.

[LakeGeneve]

That's an interesting concept considering the gentleman who was so popular for implementing populist policies didn't pay one baht in tax when sold his company for a huge profit, and apparently has quite a stash in offshore tax havens - which he's never declared.

It's easy to give away money when it's not yours.

Maybe just to clarify that a little......

A 2 billion US dollar sale of the 40% stake in a telecommunications company which had received significant market concessions under the 2001 Telecommunications Business Act and in subject regulatory changes (no guessing which govt was in power) was granted such favourable terms that one rival telco exec likened it to, 'a football game where some players have the referees whistle in their pockets'.

So $2 billion US sale and not a cent in taxes paid! :shock: I suspect that not even the Sicilian mafia get such favourable terms.

[LakeGeneve]

Considering the AOT can't even stop the illegal taxi mafia, not likely they could have done very much without the PM and his national security team on board.

And they never came on board now, did they.

That would be the same PM who the day after both airports were closed made the politically fatal step of playing a round of golf in Chaing Mai. Hard to look like a statesmen who can solve tough issues if you literally out to lunch. Staying away no matter what perceived or real threats exists is hardly a good look either.

an interesting question remaining about what happened is:

were the army and police in the tank for PAD, or was the tacit endorsement (inaction) just a result of their not wanting to make a mess of things on behalf of a government that would be dissolved fairly quickly.

While many farang were losing their heads and engaging in alarmist speculation it was suggested days ago by others much more wiser than me, (that is easy BTW), that the usual Thai political style of seeking a compromise behind the scenes was strongly in play given that both camps were being so belligerent.

That one should not be fooled by appearances and that an outcome for all to save some face for all with the deadline of a solution before the 5th. Anupong gave many hints of this I thought.

The timing of the Con Crts decision was perhaps premature but if the judgement is sound then the Rule of Law prevails in finding a resolution to this round. Those who expressed concern regarding democracy and the Rule of Law being threatened, will now be happy that some justice in the democratic process has belatedly prevailed.

That smiling moon on Monday night was a good omen!

It seemed that some elements of the police would have loved to have gone in to beat the crap out of the PAD but they had learned their lesson after 7 Oct. Perhaps some So Orr or DAAD militia could have been used as proxies as some speculated but I can't image that anyone other than those reckless elements in the PPP would counternance such a scenario and it would be much worse than Ubon was. Perhaps, ultimately the risk of causing damage the airport would have been too great and the subsequent images would have dented tourism much more deeply. And again all not a good look in the week before the 5th.

So ROL and democratic process prevails, some sanity returns and now we have a break until the next round - and depending on what occurs next week in parliament.

PS Let us not forget that a number of people were murdered around the country, many were injured (PAD, DAAD, police, others) and mature leadership by belligerents went out the window for the most part.

[LakeGeneve]

Updated TG flight info for tomorrow for anyone who may have missed it. About a dozen domestic flights from DM and 15 odd international TG flights from SBIA;

http://www.thaiair.com/Homepage/announce/sbia_situation.htm

[Alive]

I wonder if anyone got the televised speech from ...... you know who, last night.

The Army was thanked for their loyalty!

Now, I don't understand or read/write Thai like most of the wise guys here, but the translation of the speech (done by my boss) gave me quite a lot to think about politics here.

[alvish]

Zero Growth

Southeast Asia?s second-largest economy may not expand next year, as the closure of Bangkok?s two main airports hurts tourism and a global recession slows exports, Finance Minister Suchart Thadathamrongvej said Dec. 1. He forecasts growth of between zero and 1.3 percent in 2009.

?The protests and the events that happened in the past week severely dented the tourism industry and the manufacturing sector as well,? said Julia Goh, an economist at CIMB Securities Sdn. in Kuala Lumpur. ?It is something which the central bank would need to do given the political situation.?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a7ZWIFanur8w

Sure beats negative growth...

2 (or more) successive quarters of negative growth is recorded as a recession (in terms of macroeconomics) which most major economies around the world have already recorded to date.

So saying "growth of between zero and 1.3 percent in 2009" more or less is saying Thailand may be one of the only countries to dodge recession??

[Undercover]

So $2 billion US sale and not a cent in taxes paid! :shock: I suspect that not even the Sicilian mafia get such favourable terms.

From what I've read the real issue was one "40% tax" in particular that didn't get paid.

[zeusbheld]

While many farang were losing their heads and engaging in alarmist speculation it was suggested days ago by others much more wiser than me, (that is easy BTW), that the usual Thai political style of seeking a compromise behind the scenes was strongly in play given that both camps were being so belligerent.

it thought it pretty apparent machinations must have been happening; it was evident in a lot of behavior. the army guy's speech early on (i forget his name). the fact that nothing was done about the airport seizure. the apparent ease with which the airport is being gotten back up and running, and even the apparent lack of raiding of the wide open duty-free shops.

That one should not be fooled by appearances and that an outcome for all to save some face for all with the deadline of a solution before the 5th. Anupong gave many hints of this I thought.

The timing of the Con Crts decision was perhaps premature but if the judgement is sound then the Rule of Law prevails in finding a resolution to this round. Those who expressed concern regarding democracy and the Rule of Law being threatened, will now be happy that some justice in the democratic process has belatedly prevailed.

sorry but i still think the rule of law means next to nothing if "protesters" can seize an international airport and their leaders are not under arrest. this was a back room deal ffs.

That smiling moon on Monday night was a good omen!

It seemed that some elements of the police would have loved to have gone in to beat the crap out of the PAD but they had learned their lesson after 7 Oct. Perhaps some So Orr or DAAD militia could have been used as proxies as some speculated but I can't image that anyone other than those reckless elements in the PPP would counternance such a scenario and it would be much worse than Ubon was. Perhaps, ultimately the risk of causing damage the airport would have been too great and the subsequent images would have dented tourism much more deeply. And again all not a good look in the week before the 5th.

the damage to tourism will be immense, and the industry will take a long time to recover, especially in this economy. aside from the minimal loss of life, and a few more Toxin cronies being banned for 5 years, i really can't see much in this outcome that's at all encouraging.

So ROL and democratic process prevails, some sanity returns and now we have a break until the next round - and depending on what occurs next week in parliament.

ffs in what sense did ROL and democratic process get anything but a thorough ass-raping?????

again: if you can seize an international airport and get away with it, even though it is explicitly against the law of the land, then something might have prevailed, but rule of law and democratic process had sweet **** all to do with it.

in fact, if this whole process proved anything, it's that PAD has no respect for rule of law. it underlined that PPP have none either, but we already knew that (remember Toxin and TRT).

PS Let us not forget that a number of people were murdered around the country, many were injured (PAD, DAAD, police, others) and mature leadership by belligerents went out the window for the most part.

we are lucky that the body count isn't greater, although i expect later rounds to be messier, depending on PPP's response to this. farrangs are unlikely to be specifically targeted, so i don't personally feel worried for my safety. i find it encouraging that the army and police appear to have endorsed neither PPP nor PAD, but i'm not impressed overall. so unimpressed, i'll probably be leaving within the year.

[zeusbheld]

Zero Growth

Southeast Asia?s second-largest economy may not expand next year, as the closure of Bangkok?s two main airports hurts tourism and a global recession slows exports, Finance Minister Suchart Thadathamrongvej said Dec. 1. He forecasts growth of between zero and 1.3 percent in 2009.

?The protests and the events that happened in the past week severely dented the tourism industry and the manufacturing sector as well,? said Julia Goh, an economist at CIMB Securities Sdn. in Kuala Lumpur. ?It is something which the central bank would need to do given the political situation.?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a7ZWIFanur8w

Sure beats negative growth...

2 (or more) successive quarters of negative growth is recorded as a recession (in terms of macroeconomics) which most major economies around the world have already recorded to date.

So saying "growth of between zero and 1.3 percent in 2009" more or less is saying Thailand may be one of the only countries to dodge recession??

i think it has to be looked at relative to how thailand *would* have been doing, not tout failing to completely destroy the economy instantly as some sort of victory.

[CIA_Andie]

Suvarnabhumi Airport will be offically open on December 5th at 11am.....

Tomorrow (December 4th) Arrival Flight can be land.

For Don Muang Airport will be open tomorrow (December 4th) at 8am....

(but the first flight will leave to Ubonrajchathani at 6.40am)

Live from channel 3 at 22.50

[allseasonsman]

While many farang were losing their heads and engaging in alarmist speculation it was suggested days ago by others much more wiser than me, (that is easy BTW), that the usual Thai political style of seeking a compromise behind the scenes was strongly in play given that both camps were being so belligerent.

it thought it pretty apparent machinations must have been happening; it was evident in a lot of behavior. the army guy's speech early on (i forget his name). the fact that nothing was done about the airport seizure. the apparent ease with which the airport is being gotten back up and running, and even the apparent lack of raiding of the wide open duty-free shops.

That one should not be fooled by appearances and that an outcome for all to save some face for all with the deadline of a solution before the 5th. Anupong gave many hints of this I thought.

The timing of the Con Crts decision was perhaps premature but if the judgement is sound then the Rule of Law prevails in finding a resolution to this round. Those who expressed concern regarding democracy and the Rule of Law being threatened, will now be happy that some justice in the democratic process has belatedly prevailed.

sorry but i still think the rule of law means next to nothing if "protesters" can seize an international airport and their leaders are not under arrest. this was a back room deal ffs.

That smiling moon on Monday night was a good omen!

It seemed that some elements of the police would have loved to have gone in to beat the crap out of the PAD but they had learned their lesson after 7 Oct. Perhaps some So Orr or DAAD militia could have been used as proxies as some speculated but I can't image that anyone other than those reckless elements in the PPP would counternance such a scenario and it would be much worse than Ubon was. Perhaps, ultimately the risk of causing damage the airport would have been too great and the subsequent images would have dented tourism much more deeply. And again all not a good look in the week before the 5th.

the damage to tourism will be immense, and the industry will take a long time to recover, especially in this economy. aside from the minimal loss of life, and a few more Toxin cronies being banned for 5 years, i really can't see much in this outcome that's at all encouraging.

So ROL and democratic process prevails, some sanity returns and now we have a break until the next round - and depending on what occurs next week in parliament.

ffs in what sense did ROL and democratic process get anything but a thorough ass-raping?????

again: if you can seize an international airport and get away with it, even though it is explicitly against the law of the land, then something might have prevailed, but rule of law and democratic process had sweet f*ck all to do with it.

in fact, if this whole process proved anything, it's that PAD has no respect for rule of law. it underlined that PPP have none either, but we already knew that (remember Toxin and TRT).

PS Let us not forget that a number of people were murdered around the country, many were injured (PAD, DAAD, police, others) and mature leadership by belligerents went out the window for the most part.

we are lucky that the body count isn't greater, although i expect later rounds to be messier, depending on PPP's response to this. farrangs are unlikely to be specifically targeted, so i don't personally feel worried for my safety. i find it encouraging that the army and police appear to have endorsed neither PPP nor PAD, but i'm not impressed overall. so unimpressed, i'll probably be leaving within the year.

Thanks for saving me some time, in order to refute outright the crazy and delusional rant from Lake... [who BTW I just happen to disagree with and his way of expressing his opinion by creating sidebar distractions and misrepresentation or misreading other peoples views. Other times he makes many good points and can also be insightful.

I may not agree totally with you on all aspects here but broadly speaking you refutation is more than good enough for me.

Id say you won this argument hands down based on a balanced reading of bloody obvious FACTS

KEY POINT!

We [of the doom and gloom school] would doubtless BE VERY HAPPY TO BE WRONG and genuinely just wish Thailand well but fear for it's future. As I said before CONCERN and SADNESS as opposed to Alarmist.

FFS it is obvious that as CNN's Dan Rivers has said

"the court's ruling was little more than a face-saving resolution for the airport protesters, increasingly desperate and isolated as Thais became angered by the blockade, and would change little."

[LakeGeneve]

Forgot to post this pic that I took last night at 9pm in Central World supermarket.

Not the best time I would have thought to have a sign promoting air freighted meat > Seemed funny to me anyway....

[zeusbheld]

Forgot to post this pic that I took last night at 9pm in Central World supermarket.

Not the best time I would have thought to have a sign promoting air freighted meat > Seemed funny to me anyway....

one wonders how long it was sitting on the tarmac somewhere before it could fly into bangkok :shock:

[zeusbheld]

Thanks for saving me some time, in order to refute outright the crazy and delusional rant from Lake... [who BTW I just happen to disagree with and his way of expressing his opinion by creating sidebar distractions and misrepresentation or misreading other peoples views. Other times he makes many good points and can also be insightful.

I may not agree totally with you on all aspects here but broadly speaking you refutation is more than good enough for me.

Id say you won this argument hands down based on a balanced reading of bloody obvious FACTS

KEY POINT!

We [of the doom and gloom school] would doubtless BE VERY HAPPY TO BE WRONG and genuinely just wish Thailand well but fear for it's future. As I said before CONCERN and SADNESS as opposed to Alarmist.

FFS it is obvious that as CNN's Dan Rivers has said

"the court's ruling was little more than a face-saving resolution for the airport protesters, increasingly desperate and isolated as Thais became angered by the blockade, and would change little."

i don't recall taking sides in the ad hominem lobbing hissy fits between you two. no offense but the reason i don't recall it is because i didn't take sides.

if we're doing to dumb the whole thing down for discussion into two camps we might as well go get ourselves some t-shirts and clapper thingys. if you all go that way, include me out--i'm not a huge fan of those clapper thingys.

[LakeGeneve]

i don't recall taking sides in the ad hominem lobbing hissy fits between you two. no offense but the reason i don't recall it is because i didn't take sides.

if we're doing to dumb the whole thing down for discussion into two camps we might as well go get ourselves some t-shirts and clapper thingys. if you all go that way, include me out--i'm not a huge fan of those clapper thingys.

That is why I always wear protection, (hissy fits or otherwise), as I really don't wish to catch the clapper. :wink:

[zeusbheld]

am i the only one who thinks that the airports' rapid reopening may indicate some sort of coordination between PAD and AOT?

this doesn't imply any sort of conspiracy any more than the army and police's lack of intervention--just that AOT and PAD were in communication and in a rare flash of good sense PAD's leaders knew enough to do as little as possible to damage the airport or its operations.

any thoughts?

[zeusbheld]

i don't recall taking sides in the ad hominem lobbing hissy fits between you two. no offense but the reason i don't recall it is because i didn't take sides.

if we're doing to dumb the whole thing down for discussion into two camps we might as well go get ourselves some t-shirts and clapper thingys. if you all go that way, include me out--i'm not a huge fan of those clapper thingys.

That is why I always wear protection, (hissy fits or otherwise), as I really don't wish to catch the clapper. :wink:

both red clapper and yellow clapper are pretty odious diseases.

[LakeGeneve]

the apparent ease with which the airport is being gotten back up and running, and even the apparent lack of raiding of the wide open duty-free shops.

Interesting notition isn't it? Many have called the PAD 'terrorists' with 'no respect for the law at all', yet there appears to be little or no criminal damage to airport facilities and reportedly none of the duty free was raided (wait ofr the stocktake). Seems fairly strange that a crowd of 20K would not have a few pilffering the stock. Strange that 'terrorists' with no respect for the law somehow respect expensive property at the airport. It suggests some discipline and reasoning involved in the calculus of actions by the group.

That is not to say that PAD actions didn't break many laws just that those breaches seemed deliberate in the context of events and save for the few and idiotic incidents of some thuggish guards.

I for one would have gone straight for the duty free as I dislike King DF monopoly!

The timing of the Con Crts decision was perhaps premature but if the judgement is sound then the Rule of Law prevails in finding a resolution to this round. Those who expressed concern regarding democracy and the Rule of Law being threatened, will now be happy that some justice in the democratic process has belatedly prevailed.

sorry but i still think the rule of law means next to nothing if "protesters" can seize an international airport and their leaders are not under arrest. this was a back room deal ffs.

But what makes you think that people are now immune from criminal or civil liability? How many times are people arrested and charge during the commission of an offence? In the minority I would suggest. There is nothing stopping police pursuing, or other parties lodging, criminal complaints against the PAD leadership or individuals alleged to have engaged in any type unlawful behaviour.

Indeed, it seems that is already being done, http://www.nationmultimedia.com/worldhotnews/read.php?newsid=30090177, and Thai Air is stating it will seek 20 billion in damages from the PAD, http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/read.php?newsid=30090137

The notion that the PAD or members of the PAD are somehow immune from criminal charges relating to any events in the last 6 months is as repugnant as the notion that people engaging in civil disobedience of any sort should be subjected to violent attacks involving military weaponary which results in deaths and serious injury. Even convicted murderers are entitled to protection by the law.

But I will say that in the hierarchy of the criminal justice system there is usually a priority of offences to the person (life and bodily integrity) over offences such seizing public property and trespass. (Granted that in this place life is cheap esp. if you threaten the rich and their assests). But few seem to be calling for police action in relation to acts which have killed 6/7 and injured over 150 people.

I previously made the point in the Trouble in Thailand thread after Oct 7, that anyone (PAD, DAAD, police, others) engaging in violent assaults against other persons should be subjected to the criminal justice system as a matter of priority. Yet has anyone been arrested and charged with any offence? What about the previous incident in late Sept. where the DAAD thugs went to the PAD and one DAAD man died? Even the stupid idiot who drove his vehicle at police on Oct 7 has not been charged as of last week. Have the 3 criminal investigations into Oct 7 events been concluded? What about Ubon incident 6 months ago? (War against drugs, Tak Bai etc, etc)> We all know that the criminal justice system here is very weak and why many cases are not pursued.

So ROL and democratic process prevails, some sanity returns and now we have a break until the next round - and depending on what occurs next week in parliament.

ffs in what sense did ROL and democratic process get anything but a thorough ass-raping????? again: if you can seize an international airport and get away with it, even though it is explicitly against the law of the land, then something might have prevailed, but rule of law and democratic process had sweet f*ck all to do with it.

Sorry but ROL had another session in the limelight and this supported the democratic process in terms of the Con Crt decision, even if perceptions (and maybe the reality) of the timing of the judgement suggests an added intent before the 5th. Remember this case stems from the election of late Dec 07 so really the process at the EC end is too slow (EC referred the case about 10 weeks ago). Had this judgement been given 6-9 months ago we would be in a different place (maybe round 3 already!).

The judgement as I understand it (haven't read it), reinforces the electoral law and the constitutional (BTW, I am not going to hold this constitution up as a shining example as I think the 97 one is the best yet). The case was even more important when there was a blatantly cynical attempt to commence a processs to ammend the constitution and remove the specific provision which dissolves parties.

The judgement sends a clear message to all political parties that if your executive engages in voter fraud or violates the electoral law then there will be grave electoral consequences. Add that with the numerous other cases of voter fraud resulting in anulled results arising from last years election and the collective impact may improve the health of the democratic process a little. (More likely voter fraud will just become more sophisticated). We will have to wait and see how the 30 odd by elections willl go.

in fact, if this whole process proved anything, it's that PAD has no respect for rule of law. it underlined that PPP have none either, but we already knew that (remember Toxin and TRT).

This may be true as the leadership of both have their vested interests and as we know come from the rhelm where the law rarely applies. Those undermining independent institutions of oversight and regulation for their own selfish purposes are not exactly helping the ROL.

[CiaranM]

i find it encouraging that the army and police appear to have endorsed neither PPP nor PAD, but i'm not impressed overall. so unimpressed, i'll probably be leaving within the year.

well thailand's really f**ked then !!!!

[Stu_thailand]

i find it encouraging that the army and police appear to have endorsed neither PPP nor PAD, but i'm not impressed overall. so unimpressed, i'll probably be leaving within the year.

well thailand's really f**ked then !!!!

THIS year??????????? :shock:

[Loburt]

am i the only one who thinks that the airports' rapid reopening may indicate some sort of coordination between PAD and AOT?

this doesn't imply any sort of conspiracy any more than the army and police's lack of intervention--just that AOT and PAD were in communication and in a rare flash of good sense PAD's leaders knew enough to do as little as possible to damage the airport or its operations.

any thoughts?

i think that is very likely. you have to remember that the PAD was also in communication with the PPP government and were negotiating with deputy pm Chavalit Yongchaiyudh, and Chamlong was saying they would leave government house soon, until police began arresting PAD leaders. that was back in september.

they were still in communication until October 7, when the riot police ended up killing and maiming protesters outside parliament with a completely inept operation, and that's the most positive way to look at that operation.

but it's also apparent that the PPP was/is factionalized, and while there were some looking for a reasonable compromise, there were others who appeared determined to solve this through a violent confrontation. that's the way some of them have always done business (politics).

people paint both the pad and the ppp/government with very wide brush strokes. it's not the whole picture. not everyone in the pad is the dangerous megalomaniacal charlatan that sondhi limthongkul is, just as everyone in or behind the ppp is not the vicious thieving selfish bastards that thaksin/samak/newin are.

[allseasonsman]

i don't recall taking sides in the ad hominem lobbing hissy fits between you two. no offense but the reason i don't recall it is because i didn't take sides.

if we're doing to dumb the whole thing down for discussion into two camps we might as well go get ourselves some t-shirts and clapper thingys. if you all go that way, include me out--i'm not a huge fan of those clapper thingys.

I made no reference to you taking sides or anything about what you may or may not feel about what you call "ad hominem lobbing hissy fits" Rather I pointed out that you had refuted the arguments and comments put forward which saved me having to do it!

Of course there is much which is just a difference of opinion which can not be refuted as it can just be a case of agreeing to disagree. Anyway I did say I agreed with you broadly and not totally!

However I just came across a great piece which actually reflects my own views very very well and while others may not agree I think time will show this view to be spot on!

Fair play to Prue for posting this on her journal.

http://www.thailandfriends.com/index.php?name=Journal&view=journal&juid=76241&jid=60437

Thailand and the Coup for the Rich

Written by Giles Ji Ungpakorn

Tuesday, 02 December 2008

Page 1 of 2

The constitutional courts, as expected, disband a democratically elected party

Thailand?s Constitutional Courts dissolved the country?s democratically elected governing party for the second time Tuesday, forcing the government to resign. This follows the refusal of the Armed Forces and the Police to follow government instructions to clear the two international airports blocked by armed People?s Alliance for Democracy fascists.

The royalist alliance against the government is made up of the fascist PAD, the military, the police, the judiciary, the mainstream media, the "Democrat Party," most middle class academics and The Queen. They are all behind this judicial coup. A leading Democrat Party MP is one of the leaders of the illegal blockade of Bangkok?s two airports.

The Yellow-shirted PAD have armed guards which have repeatedly shot at opponents. They constantly use violence and now demand "joint patrols" with the police. The PAD has constantly broken the law, and yet they are untouchable. On the rare occasion when PAD leaders are forced to attend court, they are given bail and allowed to go back and commit the same crimes over and over again.

The majority of the Thai population, who are poor, face a double whammy. First, the elite royalists are doing everything possible to take away their basic democratic rights. Secondly, mass job losses are occurring among workers in the tourist industry as a result of the airport blockade. Jobs in agriculture and electronics are also affected and of course we are faced with the serious world economic crisis. The elites do not care if the Thai economy is trashed and Thailand returns to a poor third world nation. In such nations the elites continue to live the same lives as the rich in the developed world. The PAD protestors are middle-class extremists who do not have to go to work, hence their prolonged protests.

We are constantly told by the conservatives that the poor are too stupid to deserve the right to vote. The army staged a coup in 2006 and rewrote the constitution in order to reduce the democratic space and also to absolve themselves of any wrongdoing. The electorate have repeatedly voted in overwhelming numbers for the government party, whether it be Thai Rak Thai, which brought the former Prime Minister, Thaksin Shinawatra, or its successor, Peoples Power Party. Now People?s Power politicians are moving to the new Pua Thai Party. Will a fair election be held? Or will the elites engineer a "fix" to make sure that their people win?

What is the root cause of this crisis?

The root cause of this crisis is not the corruption of the Thaksin government in the past. It isn't about vote-buying, good governance, civil rights or the rule of law. Politicians of all parties, including the Democrats, are known to buy votes. The elites, whether politicians, civil servants or the military, have a history of gross corruption. Even when they don't break the law, they have become rich on the backs of Thai workers and small farmers. The Democrat Party is stuffed with such millionaires.

Ironically, the Thai Rak Thai party was helping to reduce the importance of vote-buying because it was the first party in decades to have real policies which were beneficial to the poor. They introduced a universal health care scheme and Keynesian village funds. People voted on the basis of such policies. The Democrats and the conservative elites hate the alliance between Thaksin's business party and the poor. They hate the idea that a government was using public funds to improve the lives of the poor. This is why the anti-government alliance is against democracy. The PAD have suggested reducing the number of elected MPs and a recipe to do away with the principle of "one person one vote". So the root cause of the problem is the conservative elite's contempt for the poor and their contempt for democracy. They are prepared to break the law when it suits them.

What is the solution?

Business leaders and the royalist elites are demanding an un-elected national government. The Democrat Party leader has "volunteered" to provide the Prime Minister! Such a national government would complete the judicial coup for the rich. It would be a victory for the PAD and a defeat for the electorate.

The Red Shirts, who are organized by government politicians, are the only hope for Thai democracy. They have now become a genuine pro-democracy mass movement of the poor. This is what is meant by "civil society", not the PAD fascists. Thai academia fails to grasp this basic fact. But the Red Shirts are not a pure force. Many have illusions about ex-Prime Minister Thaksin. They overlook his gross abuse of human rights in the south and the war on drugs, in which hundreds of people were shot as drug dealers without arrest, trial or proof. But these human rights issues are also totally ignored by the PAD and their friends.

Throughout this three-year crisis, the majority of the Thai NGO movement (especially the NGO-Coordinating Committee) has failed to support democracy. Many welcomed the 2006 military coup. Many supported the military constitution. Now they are either silent or are echoing the demands of the army chief, who said last week that the government should resign.

At no point have they attempted to build a pro-democracy social movement. Many believe that the poor are "uneducated and lack enough information to vote". The honorable examples are the Midnight University in Chiang-Mai, some sections of the labour movement, groups of new generation NGO activists and Turn Left.

The economic crisis

Millions of jobs are being destroyed by the world economic crisis and the unrest in Thai society. People are being driven back into poverty. Yet the Democrat Party, the military, the conservative elites and the mainstream NGO movement do not have a clue or do not care one jot about the necessary policies to defend the living standards of the poor. They chant about the King's Sufficiency Economy and the need for fiscal discipline. In other words, the poor must trim their spending and learn to live with their poverty while the rich continue to live in luxury.

We desperately need massive government spending on infrastructure, job protection and a serious expansion of welfare. The value-added tax should be reduced or abolished and higher direct taxes should be levied on all the rich elites without exception. The bloated military budget should be cut. Wages should be raised among workers. Poor farmers should be protected. This will only happen in a climate of genuine democracy. This is why we must oppose this second "coup for the rich".

Giles Ji Ungpakorn is an associate professor at the Faculty of Political Science, Chulalongkorn University in Bangkok. He regularly comments on Thai affairs

[bigKus]

i don't recall taking sides in the ad hominem lobbing hissy fits between you two. no offense but the reason i don't recall it is because i didn't take sides.

if we're doing to dumb the whole thing down for discussion into two camps we might as well go get ourselves some t-shirts and clapper thingys. if you all go that way, include me out--i'm not a huge fan of those clapper thingys.

I made no reference to you taking sides or anything about what you may or may not feel about what you call "ad hominem lobbing hissy fits" Rather I pointed out that you had refuted the arguments and comments put forward which saved me having to do it!

Of course there is much which is just a difference of opinion which can not be refuted as it can just be a case of agreeing to disagree. Anyway I did say I agreed with you broadly and not totally!

However I just came across a great piece which actually reflects my own views very very well and while others may not agree I think time will show this view to be spot on!

Fair play to Prue for posting this on her journal.

http://www.thailandfriends.com/index.php?name=Journal&view=journal&juid=76241&jid=60437

Thailand and the Coup for the Rich

Written by Giles Ji Ungpakorn

Tuesday, 02 December 2008

Page 1 of 2

The constitutional courts, as expected, disband a democratically elected party

Thailand?s Constitutional Courts dissolved the country?s democratically elected governing party for the second time Tuesday, forcing the government to resign. This follows the refusal of the Armed Forces and the Police to follow government instructions to clear the two international airports blocked by armed People?s Alliance for Democracy fascists.

The royalist alliance against the government is made up of the fascist PAD, the military, the police, the judiciary, the mainstream media, the "Democrat Party," most middle class academics and The Queen. They are all behind this judicial coup. A leading Democrat Party MP is one of the leaders of the illegal blockade of Bangkok?s two airports.

The Yellow-shirted PAD have armed guards which have repeatedly shot at opponents. They constantly use violence and now demand "joint patrols" with the police. The PAD has constantly broken the law, and yet they are untouchable. On the rare occasion when PAD leaders are forced to attend court, they are given bail and allowed to go back and commit the same crimes over and over again.

The majority of the Thai population, who are poor, face a double whammy. First, the elite royalists are doing everything possible to take away their basic democratic rights. Secondly, mass job losses are occurring among workers in the tourist industry as a result of the airport blockade. Jobs in agriculture and electronics are also affected and of course we are faced with the serious world economic crisis. The elites do not care if the Thai economy is trashed and Thailand returns to a poor third world nation. In such nations the elites continue to live the same lives as the rich in the developed world. The PAD protestors are middle-class extremists who do not have to go to work, hence their prolonged protests.

We are constantly told by the conservatives that the poor are too stupid to deserve the right to vote. The army staged a coup in 2006 and rewrote the constitution in order to reduce the democratic space and also to absolve themselves of any wrongdoing. The electorate have repeatedly voted in overwhelming numbers for the government party, whether it be Thai Rak Thai, which brought the former Prime Minister, Thaksin Shinawatra, or its successor, Peoples Power Party. Now People?s Power politicians are moving to the new Pua Thai Party. Will a fair election be held? Or will the elites engineer a "fix" to make sure that their people win?

What is the root cause of this crisis?

The root cause of this crisis is not the corruption of the Thaksin government in the past. It isn't about vote-buying, good governance, civil rights or the rule of law. Politicians of all parties, including the Democrats, are known to buy votes. The elites, whether politicians, civil servants or the military, have a history of gross corruption. Even when they don't break the law, they have become rich on the backs of Thai workers and small farmers. The Democrat Party is stuffed with such millionaires.

Ironically, the Thai Rak Thai party was helping to reduce the importance of vote-buying because it was the first party in decades to have real policies which were beneficial to the poor. They introduced a universal health care scheme and Keynesian village funds. People voted on the basis of such policies. The Democrats and the conservative elites hate the alliance between Thaksin's business party and the poor. They hate the idea that a government was using public funds to improve the lives of the poor. This is why the anti-government alliance is against democracy. The PAD have suggested reducing the number of elected MPs and a recipe to do away with the principle of "one person one vote". So the root cause of the problem is the conservative elite's contempt for the poor and their contempt for democracy. They are prepared to break the law when it suits them.

What is the solution?

Business leaders and the royalist elites are demanding an un-elected national government. The Democrat Party leader has "volunteered" to provide the Prime Minister! Such a national government would complete the judicial coup for the rich. It would be a victory for the PAD and a defeat for the electorate.

The Red Shirts, who are organized by government politicians, are the only hope for Thai democracy. They have now become a genuine pro-democracy mass movement of the poor. This is what is meant by "civil society", not the PAD fascists. Thai academia fails to grasp this basic fact. But the Red Shirts are not a pure force. Many have illusions about ex-Prime Minister Thaksin. They overlook his gross abuse of human rights in the south and the war on drugs, in which hundreds of people were shot as drug dealers without arrest, trial or proof. But these human rights issues are also totally ignored by the PAD and their friends.

Throughout this three-year crisis, the majority of the Thai NGO movement (especially the NGO-Coordinating Committee) has failed to support democracy. Many welcomed the 2006 military coup. Many supported the military constitution. Now they are either silent or are echoing the demands of the army chief, who said last week that the government should resign.

At no point have they attempted to build a pro-democracy social movement. Many believe that the poor are "uneducated and lack enough information to vote". The honorable examples are the Midnight University in Chiang-Mai, some sections of the labour movement, groups of new generation NGO activists and Turn Left.

The economic crisis

Millions of jobs are being destroyed by the world economic crisis and the unrest in Thai society. People are being driven back into poverty. Yet the Democrat Party, the military, the conservative elites and the mainstream NGO movement do not have a clue or do not care one jot about the necessary policies to defend the living standards of the poor. They chant about the King's Sufficiency Economy and the need for fiscal discipline. In other words, the poor must trim their spending and learn to live with their poverty while the rich continue to live in luxury.

We desperately need massive government spending on infrastructure, job protection and a serious expansion of welfare. The value-added tax should be reduced or abolished and higher direct taxes should be levied on all the rich elites without exception. The bloated military budget should be cut. Wages should be raised among workers. Poor farmers should be protected. This will only happen in a climate of genuine democracy. This is why we must oppose this second "coup for the rich".

Giles Ji Ungpakorn is an associate professor at the Faculty of Political Science, Chulalongkorn University in Bangkok. He regularly comments on Thai affairs

my suggestion to you with love allseasonman..

live more and learn more.. na ja.. 8)

[sunsnow]

allseasonsman: please, do not keep posting whole articles here and on journals. It is tiring and takes a lot of space. How about quoting some interesting, best parts of your liking, adding your own comments and then linking to the original source. Oh and you never provide any links. That is not fun either.

[Loburt]

Giles Ji Ungpakorn is an associate professor at the Faculty of Political Science, Chulalongkorn University in Bangkok. He regularly comments on Thai affairs

He's also an avowed Marxist.