Child Abuse

[LakeGeneve]

^Yes Dave, clearly I cannot read and everyone knows that in OZ we don't speaka da anglish very well.

If you were consistent in with your strict view that all child abusers should be put to death - no exceptions ever in your view - you would not expressed that justice was served in this case. Justice in your view is death, nothing less. Your "my world' statement means nothing if you firstly express that imprisonment is justice. Logic dictates that an absolute, strict liability disposition has no 2nd option....it is either applied or one disagrees with any other outcome.

On topic:

Good to see that some of the abusing scum in this part of the world are being extradicted back home to face the music and hopfully receive a long prison sentence if found guilty. The universal juridiction which a few countries assert on their nationals in relation to such abuse (eg. USA, Aus, UK) are often heavily under utilised by authorities in Asia. For various reasons such as domestic sexual practices, the often lax Rule of Law and the practice of some police/prosecutors/judges who seek financial compensation from westerners caught in their countries in return for a more favourable case outcome.

I would hope that the adaptly named Operation Twisted Traveler does a clean out of Pattaya and a few other sordid areas. They could also vicariously target other asian foreigners who tend to fall under the radar being less visiable.

Sex tourism charges await three men returned to U.S. from Cambodia

by Amy Taxin, The Associated Press Tuesday September 01, 2009, 2:00 AM

'Boarding a plane to a foreign land is no protection,' said John Morton, head of Immigration and Customs Enforcement.Three men expelled from Cambodia are facing charges in the U.S. as part of a crackdown on Americans who travel overseas to have sex with children, authorities said Monday.

The three previously convicted sex offenders were the first to be charged under "Operation Twisted Traveler," an initiative targeting problems in Cambodia, which authorities described as ground zero for the crimes. "Let their arrests serve as notice to any other person who might be tempted to evade justice by victimizing children outside of this country," said John Morton, head of Immigration and Customs Enforcement. "Boarding a plane to a foreign land is no protection."

Ronald Boyajian, Erik Peeters and Jack Sporich were expected to arrive in Los Angeles later Monday escorted by U.S. authorities after being arrested in February by Cambodian police. The three suspects were named in separate criminal complaints filed in April and May related to child sexual exploitation. They are expected to appear in court Tuesday. It was not immediately clear whether the men have lawyers in the U.S. ICE has stationed an agent in Cambodia full-time for at least a year to focus in large part on such cases.

Boyajian, 49, of Menlo Park, is accused of traveling to Cambodia in September 2008 and paying a 10-year-old Vietnamese girl to perform sex acts.

Peeters, 41, of Norwalk, engaged in sex acts with at least three Cambodian boys, authorities said. He gave their parents money and rice, and paid two of the boys between $5 and $10, the criminal complaint said.

Sporich, 75, of Sedona, Ariz., sexually abused at least one Cambodian boy, authorities said. Witnesses claim Sporich drove his motor bike through the streets of Siem Riep, dropping Cambodian currency to attract children. Several boys stayed at the home, which had a swimming pool, water slide, video games, toys and clothing, authorities said.

All three men were charged under the Protect Act, which became law in 2003 and made it easier for U.S. authorities to prosecute people for overseas sex crimes. ICE has made more than 70 arrests under the act in countries including Cambodia, Thailand and the Philippines, officials said.

Authorities wanted to bring the men back to the U.S. because they could face sentences of up to 30 years for each alleged victim, if convicted, said U.S. Attorney Thomas O'Brien. "We believe that the sentences that they're going to be facing, should they be convicted in U.S. custody, are going to be severely stronger sentences," he said.

Jeffrey Blom, vice president of investigations for the rights group International Justice Mission, said he would rather see accused sex offenders face charges in this country, where the justice system is tougher.

Federal authorities in California have tried to crack down on U.S. citizens seeking sex overseas. Retired Marine captain Michael Joseph Pepe awaits sentencing for having sex with preteen girls while working as a teacher in Cambodia. Some of the girls testified at his trial that Pepe drugged, bound, beat and raped them.

[Mister Moobs]

as you wish.

I always thought that there were no absolutes in the world of the left thinking person.

Again, as the laws stand today, justice as you and those like you have seen fit to put into law has been served.

In my opinion. No justice was not served as the guy is still able to breath. He should have been deprived of that right. Again. My opinion.

[trocks69]

do any of you even have kid???

you scream and shout nonsense at each other on these forums like you know everything on every subject that comes up.

just pull out those dicks of yours and measure them for once and see who has the biggest **** and shut the **** UP.. the rest of us would actually like to discuss and learn something

child abuse is a horrible crime. it robs a child of their innocence and childhood. they have to be adults before they are supposed to. to deal with what has happened to them. the person or persons that have done the abuse needs to be punished and punished hard. you can not rehabilitate a child abuser.

but GOD help any scum that comes near my kids it will not go well for them.

[Mister Moobs]

do any of you even have kid???

you scream and shout nonsense at each other on these forums like you know everything on every subject that comes up.

just pull out those dicks of yours and measure them for once and see who has the biggest d*ck and shut the f*ck UP.. the rest of us would actually like to discuss and learn something

child abuse is a horrible crime. it robs a child of their innocence and childhood. they have to be adults before they are supposed to. to deal with what has happened to them. the person or persons that have done the abuse needs to be punished and punished hard. you can not rehabilitate a child abuser.

but GOD help any scum that comes near my kids it will not go well for them.

I have no children of my own. I have 6 nieces and 4 nephews.

I agree with everything you said.

[Stramash]

you can not rehabilitate a child abuser.

but GOD help any scum that comes near my kids it will not go well for them.

don't completely agree on the first point, completely agree on the second.

while I would say a large percentage of sexual child abusers (remembering that there are several forms of abuse, so we should differentiate) are probably not going to respond to rehabilitation, there are a good percentage of cases where the abuse is learned behaviour and cyclical. Where an adult has been abused themselves as a child, and where that abuse has not been recognised and dealt with (and especially where the abuser has escaped punishment) there is a chance that the adult will become an abuser themselves. Obviously this will not happen with all cases, but research has shown that it is a common occurrence. In these cases, the abuser is also a victim, and we should recognise that.

Our primary concern should be for the protection and rehabilitation of the survivors of abuse, but we should also look at ways of preventing re offending and also treatment and counselling. I am not suggesting empathy with offenders, merely that, where possible, we should look at the reasons for the offence and deal with each case on its individual characteristics.

[FrancoisP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43ccEmho3BE&feature=related

every adult should care around for childrens... this is common responsability for a better world!

[GAV]

you can not rehabilitate a child abuser.

but GOD help any scum that comes near my kids it will not go well for them.

don't completely agree on the first point, completely agree on the second.

while I would say a large percentage of sexual child abusers (remembering that there are several forms of abuse, so we should differentiate) are probably not going to respond to rehabilitation, there are a good percentage of cases where the abuse is learned behaviour and cyclical. Where an adult has been abused themselves as a child, and where that abuse has not been recognised and dealt with (and especially where the abuser has escaped punishment) there is a chance that the adult will become an abuser themselves. Obviously this will not happen with all cases, but research has shown that it is a common occurrence. In these cases, the abuser is also a victim, and we should recognise that.

Our primary concern should be for the protection and rehabilitation of the survivors of abuse, but we should also look at ways of preventing re offending and also treatment and counselling. I am not suggesting empathy with offenders, merely that, where possible, we should look at the reasons for the offence and deal with each case on its individual characteristics.

Child abuse is child abuse no matter what form it takes. End of story.

[Stramash]

you can not rehabilitate a child abuser.

but GOD help any scum that comes near my kids it will not go well for them.

don't completely agree on the first point, completely agree on the second.

while I would say a large percentage of sexual child abusers (remembering that there are several forms of abuse, so we should differentiate) are probably not going to respond to rehabilitation, there are a good percentage of cases where the abuse is learned behaviour and cyclical. Where an adult has been abused themselves as a child, and where that abuse has not been recognised and dealt with (and especially where the abuser has escaped punishment) there is a chance that the adult will become an abuser themselves. Obviously this will not happen with all cases, but research has shown that it is a common occurrence. In these cases, the abuser is also a victim, and we should recognise that.

Our primary concern should be for the protection and rehabilitation of the survivors of abuse, but we should also look at ways of preventing re offending and also treatment and counselling. I am not suggesting empathy with offenders, merely that, where possible, we should look at the reasons for the offence and deal with each case on its individual characteristics.

Child abuse is child abuse no matter what form it takes. End of story.

And I have not said otherwise Gav. My point is that, in a very few case, there is a cycle of abuse from previous generations, and in those case, there is a possibility of rehabilitation and we can at least understand, while still condemning the act itself, where the crime has come from..

But in the vast majority of cases, rehabilitation is most likely impossible, and if they are not to be incarcerated, then they have to be extremely closely monitored for the rest of their lives.

I would even say that should the law not allow for them to be kept in prison, then they should at the very least be tagged so their movements are known at all times, and if they are monitored as being in a 'no go' area as defined in their parole or licence terms (such as outside a school or in a leisure centre) then parole/licence is revoked and they receive a further sentence.

[GAV]

you can not rehabilitate a child abuser.

but GOD help any scum that comes near my kids it will not go well for them.

don't completely agree on the first point, completely agree on the second.

while I would say a large percentage of sexual child abusers (remembering that there are several forms of abuse, so we should differentiate) are probably not going to respond to rehabilitation, there are a good percentage of cases where the abuse is learned behaviour and cyclical. Where an adult has been abused themselves as a child, and where that abuse has not been recognised and dealt with (and especially where the abuser has escaped punishment) there is a chance that the adult will become an abuser themselves. Obviously this will not happen with all cases, but research has shown that it is a common occurrence. In these cases, the abuser is also a victim, and we should recognise that.

Our primary concern should be for the protection and rehabilitation of the survivors of abuse, but we should also look at ways of preventing re offending and also treatment and counselling. I am not suggesting empathy with offenders, merely that, where possible, we should look at the reasons for the offence and deal with each case on its individual characteristics.

Child abuse is child abuse no matter what form it takes. End of story.

And I have not said otherwise Gav. My point is that, in a very few case, there is a cycle of abuse from previous generations, and in those case, there is a possibility of rehabilitation and we can at least understand, while still condemning the act itself, where the crime has come from..

But in the vast majority of cases, rehabilitation is most likely impossible, and if they are not to be incarcerated, then they have to be extremely closely monitored for the rest of their lives.

I would even say that should the law not allow for them to be kept in prison, then they should at the very least be tagged so their movements are known at all times, and if they are monitored as being in a 'no go' area as defined in their parole or licence terms (such as outside a school or in a leisure centre) then parole/licence is revoked and they receive a further sentence.

And your experience in this field is .......?

[Stramash]

you can not rehabilitate a child abuser.

but GOD help any scum that comes near my kids it will not go well for them.

don't completely agree on the first point, completely agree on the second.

while I would say a large percentage of sexual child abusers (remembering that there are several forms of abuse, so we should differentiate) are probably not going to respond to rehabilitation, there are a good percentage of cases where the abuse is learned behaviour and cyclical. Where an adult has been abused themselves as a child, and where that abuse has not been recognised and dealt with (and especially where the abuser has escaped punishment) there is a chance that the adult will become an abuser themselves. Obviously this will not happen with all cases, but research has shown that it is a common occurrence. In these cases, the abuser is also a victim, and we should recognise that.

Our primary concern should be for the protection and rehabilitation of the survivors of abuse, but we should also look at ways of preventing re offending and also treatment and counselling. I am not suggesting empathy with offenders, merely that, where possible, we should look at the reasons for the offence and deal with each case on its individual characteristics.

Child abuse is child abuse no matter what form it takes. End of story.

And I have not said otherwise Gav. My point is that, in a very few case, there is a cycle of abuse from previous generations, and in those case, there is a possibility of rehabilitation and we can at least understand, while still condemning the act itself, where the crime has come from..

But in the vast majority of cases, rehabilitation is most likely impossible, and if they are not to be incarcerated, then they have to be extremely closely monitored for the rest of their lives.

I would even say that should the law not allow for them to be kept in prison, then they should at the very least be tagged so their movements are known at all times, and if they are monitored as being in a 'no go' area as defined in their parole or licence terms (such as outside a school or in a leisure centre) then parole/licence is revoked and they receive a further sentence.

And your experience in this field is .......?

I have 4 clients on my caseload who are sex offenders, who have to be managed and monitored in the community. 2 of them are MAPPA (Multi-Agency Public Protection Arrangements) clients, which mean their offences are at the serious end of the spectrum. I therefore work very closely with my colleagues in other agencies to manage the offender on a day to day basis and to IMMEDIATELY raise concerns if behaviour raises suspicion of impending offending behaviour.

It only takes one phone call from any involved agency to have one of these MAPPA offenders returned to custody while suspicions are investigated.

So yes, both experience and a hell of a lot of training in this field.

And I should also mention that as well as dealing with the perpetrators of abuse, I also work with many survivors of abuse. Childhood abuse is often a pathway into addictions, whether drugs or alcohol, later in life.

[LakeGeneve]

do any of you even have kid???

you scream and shout nonsense at each other on these forums like you know everything on every subject that comes up.

just pull out those dicks of yours and measure them for once and see who has the biggest d*ck and shut the f*ck UP.. the rest of us would actually like to discuss and learn something

child abuse is a horrible crime. it robs a child of their innocence and childhood. they have to be adults before they are supposed to. to deal with what has happened to them. the person or persons that have done the abuse needs to be punished and punished hard. you can not rehabilitate a child abuser.

but GOD help any scum that comes near my kids it will not go well for them.

I never previously saw your post so here is a brief reply.

Firstly, I don't doubt that Moobs has a bigger penis but you missed the point of the debate. We were arguing about the imposition of the death penalty for people who commit serious offences against children. I am against it under any circumstances for reasons previously detailed. Moobs support it under all circumstances - except for the american soldier who rape and killed an Iraqi child.

Secondly, no sane person is going to argue with anyone that serious child abuse is repugnant and robs children of their innocence and childhood. We would all like to see a world where such horrific acts do no occur.

Thirdly, no I don't have children but I have 2 younger siblings (20yrs +) who I cared for as a young adult. Many of my goods friends have children.

As I have made the point time and time again is it often easy to demonise all crime into one easy category when the facts can be much more complex. Most offenders need to separated from society for a long time and incarceration is appropriate. But should there not be some rehab whilst in prison to ensure they don't commit the same crimes when released?

And what do we do with children who commit serious child abuse against other children? What of child abuse survivors who then later commit abuse themselves? Yes abusers need to be punished but the above two examples highlight that it is easy and simplistic to just talk about punishment in a void. If your child committed an act of child abuse against a younger child will you still argue hard punishment should be imposed? Obviously, each case has to be dealt with on its merits.

Back to one of your other queries. My views against the death penalty are based on professional experience having worked in criminal, refugee and international human rights law including documenting and prosecuting war crimes. Working in criminal and refugee law for many years gives one an exposure into the details of many acts most would rather not hear about.

In relation to the latter two areas of law, I have documented hundreds of cases of the most horrific and abusive acts committed against children. Torture, pack rapes of young girls, mass murder, you name it. Interviewed survivors, witnesses and parents who have lost their children in the most horrifying of circumstances. Personally seen the bodies of more dead children to last many lifetime (which is why I drink Absinthe). Stuff that really should not be discussed here in detail.

Am I an expert into the subject matter? No but I have a certain insight as we all do.