Defend it. Explain it.

[Mister Moobs]

OK, I understand why Palestinians fight the Jews.

I understand the land grab that was '48 and '56.

I know the story of '67 and '73.

But why does a Muslim in Indonesia or Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or Malaysia or Afghanistan or the Kyrgyz Republic hate the Jews so much.

And it's there. The Hate for Israel/Jews is huge across the Muslim World.

It would be like Eskimos in Alaska hating Swedes simply because they are Christians.

[Stramash]

OK, I understand why Palestinians fight the Jews.

I understand the land grab that was '48 and '56.

I know the story of '67 and '73.

But why does a Muslim in Indonesia or Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or Malaysia or Afghanistan or the Kyrgyz Republic hate the Jews so much.

And it's there. The Hate for Israel/Jews is huge across the Muslim World.

It would be like Eskimos in Alaska hating Swedes simply because they are Christians.

Or a Scotsman in Alabama still hating the English because, well, they are still f*cking English!!!

[juddie]

I understand the land grab that was '48 and '56.

I know the story of '67 and '73.

I think you've answered your own question.

[eagle]

Unfortunately its passed from generation to generation. Like the HAtfield and the Mcoys moved to different parts of the world but they didn't forget what happened as grandpa told them.

[CiaranM]

I understand the land grab that was '48 and '56.

I know the story of '67 and '73.

I think you've answered your own question.

and i would guess the continued occupation of palestine and the wanton destruction in gaza recently didn't exactly help endear them to the muslim world !!

[eagle]

I understand the land grab that was '48 and '56.

I know the story of '67 and '73.

I think you've answered your own question.

and i would guess the continued occupation of palestine and the wanton destruction in gaza recently didn't exactly help endear them to the muslim world !!

Like the US in Baghdad is helping US relations with Muslims right. And then with the US as a Big Israel supporter I can hear the hate growing.

[Mister Moobs]

I understand the land grab that was '48 and '56.

I know the story of '67 and '73.

I think you've answered your own question.

Depends. To which side of the land grab are you referring?

In '48, there were 3 parties who were in the "land grap" category. These were Egypt, Syria and Jordan. They each attacked in May of 1948 in attempts to steal lands that were allotted to the Israelis and Palestinians by the UN/British Mandate.

Israel, originally was pushed out of lands that were legally theirs by the UN. Not by the "mythical" Palestinians."

Jordan stole the lands in and around and including the West Bank. No one cared.

Egypt stole the Negev, Gaza and other lands in the western area of What is now Israel and what was then supposed to be legally per UN mandate Israeli lands. No one cared.

Syria took lands in the North that were supposed to be Israeli lands.

Again, no one cared.

Not one liberal voice raised in alarm.

Wonder why?

I think it's because much of the left has been historically bigoted haters of Jewish peoples. I think this explains much of the hatred spewed across Europe. Palestinians are simply the newest excuse.

In 1956, Israel came out a bit better off.

Israel did not really come out on top until 1967. That defeat changed the dynamic. The Arabs privately conceded military defeat. Realizing that they would never defeat israel militarily. That realization gave rise to the PLO and the myriad other racist, genocidal groups out there who have as their stated primary goal the extermination of Israel and all of it's peoples.

Prior to 1967, when Israel took the "occupied lands," there is no mention of a Palestine. Jordan, Egypt and Syria had planned on keeping those lands for themselves. They stored the refugees up as political pawns. And still they and their pet groups Hamas and Hezbollah use them today.

Still does not explain why a Malaysian or Indonesian Muslim or a Thai Muslim hates Jews. Aside from a common religion, what do Arab and Malay and Indonesian and Thai Muslims have in common. I wouldn't be surprised to find Cham folks in the Mekong Delta harboring this strange hate. I've met Afghans who hate Jews and they've never met them nor can they articulate a reason for their hate. But they damn sure hate them.

It's odd.

Again, it would be like Innuits in Alaska hating Finnish folks if there were some fued between the Fins and some ancient Animist tribe in the frozen North of Scandinavia or the Arctic.

[Mister Moobs]

Jewish groups in Europe and the United States have reacted with alarm to the gains made by far-right political parties in the recent elections for European Parliament. Right-wing and nationalist parties posted significant victories in Austria, Britain, Denmark, Hungary, Romania and the Netherlands in four days of voting that ended on June 7.

The Paris-based European Jewish Congress (EJC), an umbrella organization for Jewish communities in Europe, said: ?As we assess the results of this week?s elections, one disturbing trend has already crystallized; the gains made by extreme-right groups is a Europe-wide phenomenon. The success of the far-right and nationalistic parties that won seats in the elections on the basis of racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic platforms points to a clear erosion of tolerance and a clarion call to European officials to immediately engage in intercultural dialogue. The success of such rabid groups as The Freedom Party in the Netherlands, the Freedom Party in Austria (FPO), the Danish People?s Party, the British National Party, and Jobbik in Hungary, among others, will sadly only serve to embolden those who espouse the dangerous concepts of extreme nationalism, racism, anti-Semitism and xenophobia.?

The New York-based Anti-Defamation League (ADL) said it was ?deeply distressing that the blatantly anti-Semitic parties received so many votes,? and called on European leaders to ?ensure that anti-Semitism, racism and bigotry never again gain a foothold in Europe?. It is imperative that European leaders do not remain silent, but speak out and reject the hateful and bigoted worldview of parties of the far-right and their supporters.?

The Geneva-based World Jewish Congress (WJC) said: ?Far-right parties and extremists have made gains across Europe amid protest votes and low turnout for the European Parliament (EP) elections. The elections were held in all 27 EU member states from Thursday to Sunday last week. Support for centre-Left parties and governments collapsed across the EU as fringe parties, picked up protest votes.?

Although these and other Jewish groups are not alone in their concerns about rising anti-Semitism in Europe, their fear of the far right often obscures the indisputable fact that some of the greatest threats to Jews (and Israel) in contemporary Europe stem from the left side of the political aisle. Indeed, it is no big secret that all across the European continent, left-wing intellectuals are playing a crucial role in making anti-Semitism seem respectable. Of course, they are (usually) careful to promote their hatred of Jews only indirectly. Instead, modern anti-Semitism is typically disguised as anti-Zionism and an obsession with Palestinian victimhood.

European Judeophobia often takes on new life forms such as anti-Semitic boycott campaigns and anti-Israel demonstrations, the growing intensity of which the European left not only overlooks or obscures but often actively supports. It is transmitted by Europe?s left-leaning mass media, which not only believes that the systematic demonization of Israel promotes the postmodern and postnational ideological worldview of Europe?s governing class, but also appeases the wrath of Europe?s Muslim immigrants, lest they expose the myth of European socialist multicultural utopia.

As the European left intensifies its common cause with the Palestinian movement, Islam itself has emerged as a major threat to Jewish life in Europe. Although definitive statistics are scarce, most of the acts of violence against Jews and Jewish institutions in Europe in recent years seem to be perpetrated by Muslim extremists. Indeed, a 2003 report published by European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) attributed the increase in anti-Semitic violence in Europe mainly to Muslims and pro-Palestinian groups. But those findings were so embarrassing that European left-wing elites quashed the report and commissioned another one. A subsequent EUMC report, which used a more politically correct research methodology, concluded that the ?noticeable rise in reported anti-Semitic incidents? was the fault of ?young, white Europeans incited by traditional right-wing extremist groups.?

In any case, right-wing groups such as Geert Wilder?s Party for Freedom in the Netherlands and the Danish People?s Party, far from being the purveyors of ?rabid? racism and anti-Semitism that the EJC claims, are some of the best allies that Jews (and Israel) will find in Europe today. In fact, the Danish People?s Party is a strong supporter of Israel as well as the US-led War on Terrorism, of which Israel is a major beneficiary. It has called for stronger sanctions against totalitarian regimes and dictatorships, especially those in the Islamic world. It has also supported academic grants for specific research into terrorism and Islamism. For his part, Wilders calls himself a true friend of Israel. During a recent visit to Jerusalem, Wilders said: ?We see Christians and Jews as part of one culture. When I?m here I?m with my people, my country, my values. I feel more at home here than in many other European countries. Israel?s a democracy ? it?s everything we stand for.?

Wilders and a growing number of other Europeans understand the threat that Islam poses to Europe and to the Western world. They are also taking a stand against an European leftwing political class that despises its Judeo-Christian heritage so much that it has become an undiscerning apologist for Islam. Unfortunately, the Islamization of Europe, which is being promoted by an intolerant leftwing multicultural dogma that gives immigrants more rights than natives, is one of the main factors contributing to the alarming rise of truly troublesome extremist groups like the Hungarian Jobbik party.

The European political right is far more nuanced and complex than catch-all labels such as ?far right? or ?extreme right? imply. Whereas right-wing groups in Denmark and Holland, animated by common sense, are pushing back against a European multicultural movement that has run amok and has pushed Western Civilization to the edge of the abyss, other groups like those in Austria, Hungary and Romania, animated by ignorance, are promoting hatred against any and all immigrants just for the sake of it. It is a world of difference.

The knee-jerk tendency to stereotype the European right-wing as anti-Semitic obscures the fact that, with few exceptions, the only genuine European supporters of Jews and Israel are on the political right-wing. Indeed, in the bigger scheme of things, Jews have much more to fear from the European left than they do from the European far right.

This could explain some of it.

[beej]

OK, I understand why Palestinians fight the Jews.

I understand the land grab that was '48 and '56.

I know the story of '67 and '73.

But why does a Muslim in Indonesia or Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or Malaysia or Afghanistan or the Kyrgyz Republic hate the Jews so much.

And it's there. The Hate for Israel/Jews is huge across the Muslim World.

It would be like Eskimos in Alaska hating Swedes simply because they are Christians.

I guess only a tiny tiny % of Muslims hate Jews.

[Mister Moobs]

Unfortunately its passed from generation to generation. Like the HAtfield and the Mcoys moved to different parts of the world but they didn't forget what happened as grandpa told them.

But that hate had to be imported.

It is not an "indigenous hate."

It had to be preached in Mosques by outsiders. More than likely Arab mullahs spreading hatred of both Israel and the West.

[CiaranM]

so u r saying the fascist parties in europe r really friends of the jews ... f**k sake u been getting lessons from Paul the Turd ??

[Mister Moobs]

Yehuda Alkalai is one of Jewish history's remarkable figures. Fifty years before Theodor Herzl convened the First Zionist Congress in 1897, Alkalai was agitating for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Alkalai, a rabbi who served the community in the capital of Serbia, was influenced by the events occurring around him. The Damascus Blood Libel in 1840 - the Muslim authorities framed, arrested and tortured the leaders of the Syrian Jewish community for ritually murdering a priest - convinced him that Jews needed a haven from anti-Semitism.

But there was another factor in Alkalai's Zionist quest that cannot be ignored: The Serbs were staging a national rebellion against their overlords, the Ottoman Empire. This fight against Islamic imperialism inspired him to ask why Jews were not engaged in a battle for their own national independence.

Delegates at the UN and professors on university campuses worldwide brand the State of Israel the creation of a racist and colonialist European imperialism. This libel of the Jewish state betrays an ignorance of the history of the Jews and the story of the Zionist movement. From the beginning, the Zionist movement has been a foe of imperialism. Rebellions of national independence against the Ottoman and Russian empires influenced precursors of the Zionist movement, such as Alkalai and Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Kalischer. Moses Hess, a socialist, looked toward Garibaldi's Italy as his inspiration for a Jewish homeland in Israel.

Herzl's concept of a Jewish state was based on the 19th-century liberal European nation-state. Even Vladimir Jabotinksy, an admirer of Mussolini's fascist regime, always stressed the influence of democracy on his political ideology. No major Zionist leader or thinker ever claimed that Zionism's goals were the imperialist domination of any other people. The accusation made by enemies of Israel that the Jewish state is an imperialist outpost of the West in the Middle East is a lie.

If the Zionist founders of the State of Israel were, indeed, imperialists, what empire did they represent? The pioneers who founded the modern State of Israel were young men and women who were fleeing pogroms and poverty in the Russian Pale of Settlement. It is true that Zionist founders such as Herzl looked toward imperial powers such as Britain and the Ottomans to back the building of a Jewish state. It is true that the Balfour Declaration of 1917 committed British imperialists to the creation of a Jewish home in Palestine. In the end, however, the British Empire betrayed the Jews of Europe to curry favor with the Arab world. It shut the gates of Jewish immigration to Palestine, abandoning the Jews to their fate in Nazi-occupied Europe.

THOSE WHO claim the Zionists have always been imperialists are actually racists. They deny the fact that although Jews lived in Europe and resembled the white-skinned Europeans with whom they lived, the Christians of Europe never believed Jews could ever be true Germans or Frenchmen. For more than a millennium, Christians and Muslims persecuted Jews, branding them inferiors and social outcasts, not caring what the color of Jewish skin was. We forget that racism is not only an issue of color. The Nazi regime destroyed 6 million Jews based on vile and false theories of Aryan racial superiority.

Racist hatred is not just a matter of hating a people for the color of their skin. The Holocaust is the ultimate proof of that. Europe and the Muslim world were never a home for the Jews. The empires of the Christian and Muslim world could have cared one iota about Jewish survival and the Jewish future. The Zionist enterprise was desperate and lonely. If only the Jews had the power of an empire, perhaps millions of Jews could have been saved from genocide. "Zionist imperialism" is an absurd phrase, an oxymoron. It is an anti-Semitic canard. It denies the tragic realities of Jewish history.

JEWS WERE AS much the victims of European colonialism as people of color in the Middle East, Africa and Asia. The European imperialists never colonized a Jewish homeland but they did denigrate Jewish religion and Jewish culture. The emancipation of the Jews - the granting of citizenship to Jews 200 years ago in France - robbed them of their national identity and their sense of being a people. The Europeans were not believers in "cultural pluralism." They viewed the granting of citizenship as the first step of the disappearance of Jewish identity through assimilation into their societies and then conversion to Christianity.

After France emancipated its Jews, the imperialist Napoleon demanded that the Jewish notables of the French nation prove their loyalty to that nation, not to the Jewish people. Emancipation was humiliating. Jews in Europe bent over backward to prove their loyalty to Germany, France and England by denigrating their own culture and religious heritage as inferior and in need of reform. They were forced to betray their ancient loyalty to the Jewish nation by rejecting traditional Jewish identity. There were benefits that came with citizenship. But the costs in terms of Jewish identity, pride and dignity were disastrous. The Zionist movement rejected this form of "cultural colonialism." The emancipators denigrated Jews in their own backyard in the same way that they did so to people of color abroad.

FINALLY, TO BRAND Zionism as imperialism is to deny the connection of the Jews to the Land of Israel that goes back 3,000 years. Jews were battling imperialists, whether they were Hellenists or Romans, long before the modern national movements of liberation. The British in India, as well as the French in Algeria, did not have an ancient connection to the lands they colonized. The Europeans exploited native populations for reasons of economics and jingoism. Not so the Jews. The Jewish pioneers settled in Palestine to find a place to live as free men and women, free of the domination of imperialists in the European and Islamic world.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1245184859050&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Interesting read. But it will be immediately cast aside by anyone with a leftist view point.

[Neo]

So if Hitler killed a few million jews in Europe, the Jews in the US should be happy as Larry?

Or is their dislike of Nazi's an imported hate, taught to them by Jewish extremists?

A fascinating dilema.

[Mister Moobs]

so u r saying the fascist parties in europe r really friends of the jews ... f**k sake u been getting lessons from Paul the Turd ??

Dude, can't you be civil.

I "said" nothing. I copied and pasted from an article. It's why it's in a quote box. A quote box signifies that one is quoting another.

[Stramash]

Love it.

It's like throwing a scrap of bloody meat to a tank full of piranhas!!!

[Mister Moobs]

Neo and Ciaran, I'm out of it. You want to play your silly little game. I get it. OK. I don't really give a **** but I get it. But you're boring me.

Beej, I don't think it's a tiny %.

The following will be a personal anecdote:

Over the past two years, I have spoken to many Afghans. I don't have a number. They'll ask me about other countries that I've visited. Its gotten to where I won't mention Israel because the hatred that is automatically spewed always amazes me. Same thing has occurred elsewhere.

I don't understand it. Israel has done nothing to Afghanistan.

For that matter, Israel has done nothing to Iran.

Iran and Israel are actually likely allies because of the Shi'a/Sunni Conflict. The only hatred that rivals that of the hatred that Arab Muslims have for Israel is the Sunni hatred for Shi'a Muslims.

So, Iran and Ahmadinejad should be bosom buddies.

[Mister Moobs]

Neo and Ciaran, I'm out of it. You want to play your silly little game. I get it. OK. I don't really give a **** but I get it. But you're boring me.

Beej, I don't think it's a tiny %.

The following will be a personal anecdote:

Over the past two years, I have spoken to many Afghans. I don't have a number. They'll ask me about other countries that I've visited. Its gotten to where I won't mention Israel because the hatred that is automatically spewed always amazes me. Same thing has occurred elsewhere.

I don't understand it. Israel has done nothing to Afghanistan.

For that matter, Israel has done nothing to Iran.

Iran and Israel are actually likely allies because of the Shi'a/Sunni Conflict. The only hatred that rivals that of the hatred that Arab Muslims have for Israel is the Sunni hatred for Shi'a Muslims.

So, Iran and Ahmadinejad should be bosom buddies.

[Neo]

What's the matter JD?

When someone scores a goal you pick up your ball and take it home?

8)

[Mister Moobs]

Love it.

It's like throwing a scrap of bloody meat to a tank full of piranhas!!!

Iain, give me your honest opinion on the question.

Really. I'd love to hear it.

Neo and Ciaran are going to be children in this thread. That's a given. I'd like a couple of honest opinions, though. It's easy to ignore those two.

[CiaranM]

Love it.

It's like throwing a scrap of bloody meat to a tank full of piranhas!!!

Iain, give me your honest opinion on the question.

Really. I'd love to hear it.

Neo and Ciaran are going to be children in this thread. That's a given. I'd like a couple of honest opinions, though. It's easy to ignore those two.

here's an honest opinion ... u r **** stirring .... posting absolute bollocks claiming that european left wingers r more dangerous that fascist parties and then whinge and whine when ppl pull u on it !!

the other alternative is that u really truely r as dumb as paul the turd !!!

[Stramash]

I think hatred and mistrust of the Jews goes back much further than this century. The Christians have been hating and persecuting them far longer than the Muslims.

"March 16, 1190: A pogrom in York, England, results in the massacre of up to 500 Jews. Beginning in late 1189, Catholics goaded and envenomed by the coming Crusades In the Holy Land, form roving mobs and rehearse their fanaticism by attacking and murdering Jews. In September 1189, 30 Jews are murdered to mark the coronation of King Richard I the Lionheart. That massacre would prove to be a mere warm-up act for the carnage of March 18 the following year, when Jews are killed by the hundreds in York but also at Lynn, at Stamford fair, and at Norwich. Dozens of Jews commit suicide to avoid being murdered. (New York was not named after England?s York, but rather in honor of the 17th century Duke of York.)"

Of course there are stories like this one from all over Medieval Europe, especially around the time of the various crusades when religious extremism was rampant in most European countries.

To many Christians, the Jews will always be seen as the betrayer and killer of Christ.

For Muslims, although much of the modern hatred is based on the land grabs, and despite in many regions the two religions managing to live in peace, I do think the hatred goes back to the days of Muhammed himself.

According to islamic legend/history, Jewish tribes in exile not only breached agreements and treaties, but in some cases plotted to kill Muhammed himself.

So, you can almost imagine a Muslim and a Christian sitting together a thousand years ago discussing these pesky b*stards who seem to keep killing or trying to kill their respective prophets!!

Of course, much of the modern hatred is based on the expulsion and persecution of the Palestinians.

There is a unity within Islam (and yes, I appreciate there are the different sects such as Sunni and Shi'ite) but there is still a foundation of shared faith not seen as much in Christianity. What does not help the situation over the last decade or three are the twisted mullahs and self serving 'freedom fighters' who distort the Koran and instil and ferment hatred amongst the young.

But while you are right to say there is not only a tiny percent who hate the Jews, I would say that it is not a majority who HATE. Mistrust certainly, dislike, almost definitely, but there are many Muslims who want a peaceful solution to Palestine, and there are many who are willing to recognise Israel's right to exist if Israel will do the same for Palestine, and without the ludicrous conditions Netanhayu suggested the other day.

The historical argument is null and void imho. Who cares where someone lived 1000, 2000 or 3000 years ago. **** happens, people move, whether forced or voluntary.

If the historical argument was a valid one, then we could kick the English back to various mainland European countries; after all they have been here less than 2000 years!!!

[CiaranM]

just a few quotes from the BNP !! nice ppl and just been elected to the european parliament ... u'd be right at home with this crowd JD !!!

I am only going to represent the white people. I WILL NOT REPRESENT ASIANS. I will not do anything for them. They have no right to be in my great country." - Derek Beackon

"When we get to power OUR OPPONENTS WILL BE SWEPT AWAY like flies." - John Tyndall

"Very few people in Britain are aware of the huge influence over the mass media exercised by a certain ethnic minority, namely the Jews." - Nick Griffin

?The controllers of Hollywood, almost entirely Jewish. Some 'ANTI-SEMITISM' MAY BE PROVOKED BY THE ACTIONS OF CERTAIN JEWS THEMSELVES and thereby have a RATIONAL BASIS?. - Nick Griffin

"There is no doubt that hundreds, probably thousands of Jews were shot to death in Eastern Europe, because they were rightly or wrongly seen as communists or potential partisan supporters. That was awful. But THIS NONSENSE ABOUT GAS CHAMBERS is exposed as a total lie." - Nick Griffin

"[t]his BLOODY JEW [Alex Carlile MP] whose only claim is that his grandparents died in the Holocaust." - Nick Griffin

"There's not a European country the Jews haven't been thrown out of. When it happens that many times, it's not just persecution. THERE'S NO SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE." - Mark Collett

"Without the White race nothing matters [other right-wing parties] believe that the answer to the race question is integration and a futile attempt to create "Black Britons", while we affirm that NON-WHITES HAVE NO PLACE HERE AT ALL AND WILL NOT REST UNTIL EVERY LAST ONE HAS LEFT OUR LAND." - Nick Griffin

"Yes, Adolf went a bit too far. His legacy is the biggest problem that the British nationalist movement has to deal with. It just creates a bad image." - Nick Griffin

"There is a STRONG, DIRECT LINK from Oswald Mosley to me." - Nick Griffin

?The TV footage of dozens of ?gay? demonstrators flaunting their perversions in front of the world?s journalists showed just why so many ordinary people find these CREATURES so repulsive.? - Nick Griffin

"Churchill was a ******* ***** who led us into a pointless war with other whites [the Nazis] standing up for their race." - Mark Collett

[CiaranM]

IThe historical argument is null and void imho. Who cares where someone lived 1000, 2000 or 3000 years ago. sh*t happens, people move, whether forced or voluntary.

If the historical argument was a valid one, then we could kick the English back to various mainland European countries; after all they have been here less than 2000 years!!!

i don't see too many white americans or australians volunteering to f**k off home and leave the country to the natives !! :roll: :roll:

[Stramash]

IThe historical argument is null and void imho. Who cares where someone lived 1000, 2000 or 3000 years ago. sh*t happens, people move, whether forced or voluntary.

If the historical argument was a valid one, then we could kick the English back to various mainland European countries; after all they have been here less than 2000 years!!!

i don't see too many white americans or australians volunteering to f**k off home and leave the country to the natives !! :roll: :roll:

exactly!! Or English!!!

My point was that a historical claim to a geographical location is not a valid one.

:roll:

[R.Win]

IThe historical argument is null and void imho. Who cares where someone lived 1000, 2000 or 3000 years ago. sh*t happens, people move, whether forced or voluntary.

If the historical argument was a valid one, then we could kick the English back to various mainland European countries; after all they have been here less than 2000 years!!!

i don't see too many white americans or australians volunteering to f**k off home and leave the country to the natives !! :roll: :roll:

aside from America and that outher country not even worth mentioning... the english are sort of the natives, back when you could go there by foot which would be around that time we were wearing fur a lot it were the same people coming and going as on mainland Europe, it's the Frisian Dutch and some German tribes who went there later and invented themselves the english language, they didn't need to take it from other natives as far as I know.