Immigrants

[kaunitz]

I had a discussion today with someone who for sure does not have the experience from abroad as I have. But there was one crucial point we both agreed: People who come to a country out of various reasons and intend to stay there should accept one very important point: If you come to another country/culture, you should adapt to the culture of this environment in order to integrate. This does not mean that you would have to change your religion but it would definitely mean that you should change your style of living i.e. not throwing garbage out of the windows or slaughtering goats in the backyards or making noise whenever you think of.

Why is it necessary for me in my HOME COUNTRY to accept what other cultures are doing??? Isn' it clear that one would have to adapt to the place/culture he is living in??? Up to now, I had to adapt to cultures and habits in the Middle East, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Eritrea and the Maghreb. And I always succeeded because I always made some friends and I always had good memories.

(see www.heinznitsch.com)

Oh, here in Austria, unfortunately some (influential) people are thinking that we have to adapt to those who came in to our country from Africa, the Balkans or whereever. These are people who never have travelled other countries and who never have encountered other cultures. So then - why should I take care of another culture when I am living in another country?

Well, I always will, because I have made the experience, and I respect other peoples and cultures. But I really do not see why we in Europe should not expect the same just because of some stupid politicians who never went farther than Mallorcas beaches!

If this continues, the Central European Culture will be extinct in two generations - maybe some of our politicians even want this to happen!

Any comments on this?

[English_Bob]

An Austrian who is intolerant of immigrants...?

I'm having deja vu... and it doesn't end well.

[GM]

Something tells me this thread is not going to end well....

[English_Bob]

You have to be more specific, Heinz.

What exactly are the immigrants doing that you don't like?

You see, I am an immigrant - living here in Bangkok. This is a very tolerant country, its people accepting all nationalities.

After 7 years though, I can barely read much more than a menu or a road sign - and that is more than most.

I have no male Thai friends - which is common for almost every expat.

I like to eat western food.

I like to go to bars full of 'my own people' because I don't like Thai music and I don't like the Thai-style bars.

I love seeing Bangkok decorated in Christmas trees.

Now these things probably piss off some locals - "Look at that guy... 7 years here and doesn't eat Thai food... doesn't listen to Thai music..." - but I'm not harming anyone.

Perhaps the immigrants in Austria are trying to keep their cultures alive, despite being in another country.

[Treborz]

I made my thoughts on this clear in another thread.

I don't think immigrants should be forced to adopt the culture of the country they move to but at the same time they shouldn't try and force their own culture or, more importantly, Laws on that country either.

As long as they respect the laws of the country and pay their taxes I have no issue. I do the same in any country i travel through or spend an extended period of time in. (Actually that's not entirely true but it was no fault of mine, i blame my employer )

[kaunitz]

You have to be more specific, Heinz.

What exactly are the immigrants doing that you don't like?

You see, I am an immigrant - living here in Bangkok. This is a very tolerant country, its people accepting all nationalities.

After 7 years though, I can barely read much more than a menu or a road sign - and that is more than most.

I have no male Thai friends - which is common for almost every expat.

I like to eat western food.

I like to go to bars full of 'my own people' because I don't like Thai music and I don't like the Thai-style bars.

I love seeing Bangkok decorated in Christmas trees.

Now these things probably piss off some locals - "Look at that guy... 7 years here and doesn't eat Thai food... doesn't listen to Thai music..." - but I'm not harming anyone.

Perhaps the immigrants in Austria are trying to keep their cultures alive, despite being in another country.

You see, this is what I think is the difference here. You are an immigant to Thailand, you are ONE. If you do like as you say, it is ok for me as long as you respect the indigenous people = the THAI) and as long as you do not try to imply your culture and especially your thinkings on THEM - something that is very different to the current stream in Europe! Still, I think that there is a difference between an immigrant like you and an immigrant from, let's say Far Eastern Turkey to Austria - and this is what we get right now! And in Austria/Europe, the immigrant is always right - brrr!

BTW: I also do not like Thai food, I tried but 75% I do not like! But this is not a point of telling about integratoin, I think!

[kaunitz]

I made my thoughts on this clear in another thread.

I don't think immigrants should be forced to adopt the culture of the country they move to but at the same time they shouldn't try and force their own culture or, more importantly, Laws on that country either.

As long as they respect the laws of the country and pay their taxes I have no issue. I do the same in any country i travel through or spend an extended period of time in. (Actually that's not entirely true but it was no fault of mine, i blame my employer )

Thank you very much, Treborz, this is exactly what I say! But unfortunately our politicians think that we not only have to respect (which I could understand to a certain extent) but also adapt to the cultures of our immigrants, who by most are so-called "asylum-seekers"!

[English_Bob]

You need to give specific examples of what immigrant behaviour you are being forced to follow.

You need to show that you are being unreasonably inconvenienced. That the immigrants are having an effect on your every day life.

So far, you have not told us exactly what is the problem - rubbish throwing and goat killing?

[kaunitz]

You need to give specific examples of what immigrant behaviour you are being forced to follow.

You need to show that you are being unreasonably inconvenienced. That the immigrants are having an effect on your every day life.

So far, you have not told us exactly what is the problem - rubbish throwing and goat killing?

So you do not have any point you can show against my argumentation, as I can see. You just want to be the "humanitarian" guy. Ok, let it be...

Oh, I never will kill goats for nothing!

[English_Bob]

Heinz - you haven't given an argument yet. That's why I haven't voted... I can't say if you are right or wrong, yet.

Please explain how immigrants are affecting your life. I mean, give specific examples... do you get awoken by the calls of the muezzin in the morning? That would drive me crazy.

Are immigrants stealing your goats to kill?

Is there a government policy which specifically promotes immigrant culture over your own?

I really want to know.

Or is your argument based on the fact that there are lots of immigrants who are not integrating themselves into Austrian culture? Is it that you don't like seeing lots of immigrants around your country?

I'm not making a point yet - I am trying to understand your forum.

[kaunitz]

You have to be more specific, Heinz.

What exactly are the immigrants doing that you don't like?

You see, I am an immigrant - living here in Bangkok. This is a very tolerant country, its people accepting all nationalities.

After 7 years though, I can barely read much more than a menu or a road sign - and that is more than most.

I have no male Thai friends - which is common for almost every expat.

I like to eat western food.

I like to go to bars full of 'my own people' because I don't like Thai music and I don't like the Thai-style bars.

I love seeing Bangkok decorated in Christmas trees.

Now these things probably piss off some locals - "Look at that guy... 7 years here and doesn't eat Thai food... doesn't listen to Thai music..." - but I'm not harming anyone.

Perhaps the immigrants in Austria are trying to keep their cultures alive, despite being in another country.

Well, one more and important point: My thread was not about Thai - Farang. It was about immigrants in my country. And here we are:

Everybody is welcome to keep his culture/values in a foreign country as long as he respects the laws, customs and culture of the country he is in! This is what i experienced a lot and always accepted and practised: Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Eritrea, Kosovo, Albania, Afghanistan, et al.

German (Austrians official language) is not understood any more in quite important areas

Police regularily has to intervene in order to cut illegal sheep slaughtering (sounds polemic, but unfortunately, it is the truth)

Together with the first point: Unemployment agency and Social Welfare have to write down all their information folders in Turkish (and also Serbian, but this is a minority)

At primary schools, the level cannot be held anymore because of the need of teaching children who cannot speak German

At parks, Austrian children cannot play anymore as they are chased away by Turkish "gangs" (sounds also very polemic, but unfortunately it is like this!)

All the other things I would not bring up right now, but there are a lot! Cleanliness, noisiness etc. The only thing is that the dogs of old AUSTRIANS are still crapping on the sidewalks, but for the rest...

Oh, by the way: I do not speak Arabic, although I have spent about five years in Arabic-speaking countries. I do not speak ANY Amharic (not even Good morning) although I spent a year in Eritrea and Ethiopia... so what??? Are you proud of what you are NOT able to do???

And with your "deja vu" - I'm sorry, the Nazi thing does not work with me!

[English_Bob]

Heinz - you don't argue very well.

I haven't made up my mind if you are right or wrong, yet.

But you need to give specific examples of how you are being affected.

There have always been gangs of kids who chased away other kids from parks - it's part of growing up. I'm not sure if the 'Turkish' part is valid.

Illegal sheep killing? Errm that's only a problem for you if you are a sheep farmer... or a sheep.

I understood perfectly well that you were referring to Austria.

I was using a Thai-Farang analogy because it's something most forum readers can relate to.... over here WE are the immigrants. And there are government officials who need to speak English because most expats don't speak great Thai...

...although strangely enough, Indian expats usually speak Thai very well.

[kaunitz]

Heinz - you don't argue very well.

I haven't made up my mind if you are right or wrong, yet.

But you need to give specific examples of how you are being affected.

There have always been gangs of kids who chased away other kids from parks - it's part of growing up. I'm not sure if the 'Turkish' part is valid.

Illegal sheep killing? Errm that's only a problem for you if you are a sheep farmer... or a sheep.

I understood perfectly well that you were referring to Austria.

I was using a Thai-Farang analogy because it's something most forum readers can relate to.... over here WE are the immigrants. And there are government officials who need to speak English because most expats don't speak great Thai...

...although strangely enough, Indian expats usually speak Thai very well.

Well, as you are not Austrian, I doubt that you are understanding what I am talking about. Your postings show that very well.

Forget Thai in this thread, it was not meant!

And Indians in Austia also speak German..... so that's not the point

You just don't get what I wanted to say!

About being more specific: Do I have to tell you now who (name, age, address, shoe size of his/her mother-in-law) has done this and that on (time, date, location)???

Stop being blue-eyed, my friend! See the reality!

[beej]

Seems to me like a little hat tipping to the Muslims moving to your country no?

Personally I don't think that anyone moving to another country should be forced to learn the language, or follow their culture.

I for one would hate to have to learn to speak perfect Thai, go to the temple, learn Buddhism, Learn Thai history and so on, I eat Western food, speak little Thai, flout laws on a daily basis, and adopt VERY little Thai culture into my life, and I've lived here since 1997 pretty much.

So are you saying, if someone is to come and live in Austria, say, errr an Arab, should they be forced to learn the Austrian language perfectly, eat Austrian food, not worship the faith of Islam in a Mosque, Learn Austrian history, follow the Austrian law to every last line..... how can you ask people to do this when Austrians themselves don't?

I ******* hate the immigration argument, Keep Britain British and all of that ****. Things change, countries and cultures change, it happens, get used to it and grow up. We're not going to live in your grandma's era for ever.

[English_Bob]

Well, as you are not Austrian, I doubt that you are understanding what I am talking about. Your postings show that very well.

Point one - there are very few Austrians on here - so either post for the masses or stay on Austrian forums.

Forget Thai in this thread, it was not meant!

Point two - you can't control what is on the forum. This is a Thailand based forum... if you want to talk only about Austria - well, see point one.

You just don't get what I wanted to say!

Point three - if I don't get what you wanted to say, say it more clearly. And maybe answer the question - HOW IS YOUR LIFE AFFECTED BY IMMIGRANTS?

I asked three or four times, but you didn't answer... either your life is not affected by immigrants or it's such a small impact, it's not worth mentioning.

About being more specific: Do I have to tell you now who (name, age, address, shoe size of his/her mother-in-law) has done this and that on (time, date, location)???

Point four - you started this forum saying that 'individuals' who have not travelled are making policy that promotes immigrant culture over your own. THAT is the specific information I am looking for.

Stop being blue-eyed, my friend! See the reality!

Point five - whose reality? How can our realities be the same? I am an immigrant living in Thailand, you are a native living in Austria?

I still haven't disagreed with you - I want information to find out what exactly is the problem. If you write clearly, I will be able to make my mind up.

My feeling so far is that you don't like seeing your country overrun with bogus asylum seekers. You don't like to see economic migrants taking advantage of Austria's welfare system and therefore the taxes that you pay. You feel that immigrants commit more crime than natives.

I think these are your points - and they would be valid. However, you are writing vaguely about goats and playgrounds. If your points are more specific - be brave - write what you really feel.

I don't think you care about sheep killing... I think your concern is that Austria is being taken advantage of and that your culture will be eroded by the effects of migrants.

[Neo]

I agree with Heinz.

For me Thailand is a neverending source of charm, wonder and fascination. Thai food is among the most interesting and varied in the world. Learning the language is a continuing journey into the hearts and minds of Thai people. It's a joy and a privelage to live among these people and their art, religion, culture, language, food, and of course the beautiful country. I do my best to show respect so as to not offend my hosts, and that of course requires effort to understand the culture to some degree. But for me that is part of the joy of life here.

I have no idea why anyone would want to spend years of their life in a country without being interested in the local culture. The most boring aspect of life in Thailand is the thousands upon thousands of expats (not to mention sexpats) who eat bland stodgy artery clogging farang food, listen to 70's MOR pop/rock, and complain they can't get a beer on Mahabucha day. One has to wonder why they live here.

[English_Bob]

I agree with Heinz.

You want to read his posts again?

Actually he said he doesn't like Thai food.

Lived in Arabic countries but didn't learn the language.

And this forum is nothing to do with Thailand...

So far this forum is about Turkish kids scaring Austrian kids, and people killing sheep.

[beej]

Hey Heinz..... I'm sure you'll fit right in here...

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/

[beej]

I agree with Heinz.

For me Thailand is a neverending source of charm, wonder and fascination. Thai food is among the most interesting and varied in the world. Learning the language is a continuing journey into the hearts and minds of Thai people. It's a joy and a privelage to live among these people and their art, religion, culture, language, food, and of course the beautiful country. I do my best to show respect so as to not offend my hosts, and that of course requires effort to understand the culture to some degree. But for me that is part of the joy of life here.

I have no idea why anyone would want to spend years of their life in a country without being interested in the local culture. The most boring aspect of life in Thailand is the thousands upon thousands of expats (not to mention sexpats) who eat bland stodgy artery clogging farang food, listen to 70's MOR pop/rock, and complain they can't get a beer on Mahabucha day. One has to wonder why they live here.

...but do you think that anyone coming to live in Thailand should be forced to learn Thai, and fit into the Thai culture, or get out?

[eagle]

I agree with Heinz.

For me Thailand is a neverending source of charm, wonder and fascination. Thai food is among the most interesting and varied in the world. Learning the language is a continuing journey into the hearts and minds of Thai people. It's a joy and a privelage to live among these people and their art, religion, culture, language, food, and of course the beautiful country. I do my best to show respect so as to not offend my hosts, and that of course requires effort to understand the culture to some degree. But for me that is part of the joy of life here.

I have no idea why anyone would want to spend years of their life in a country without being interested in the local culture. The most boring aspect of life in Thailand is the thousands upon thousands of expats (not to mention sexpats) who eat bland stodgy artery clogging farang food, listen to 70's MOR pop/rock, and complain they can't get a beer on Mahabucha day. One has to wonder why they live here.

...but do you think that anyone coming to live in Thailand should be forced to learn Thai, and fit into the Thai culture, or get out?

So who decides what is acceptable behavior! Sounds fascist to me.

[Neo]

I agree with Heinz.

You want to read his posts again?

Actually he said he doesn't like Thai food.

Lived in Arabic countries but didn't learn the language.

And this forum is nothing to do with Thailand...

So far this forum is about Turkish kids scaring Austrian kids, and people killing sheep.

Yes, I understand that. He was using his example to speak about a broader more general subject. Also he said that he does try to accept and respect other cultures in his own country, but doesn't want to be forced to. I can't really talk about Austria specifically, and this is TF, so I'm talking about the Thai version, i.e. Farangs offending Thai people. And it's fine if he doesn't like Thai food... he doesn't live here.

[Neo]

I agree with Heinz.

For me Thailand is a neverending source of charm, wonder and fascination. Thai food is among the most interesting and varied in the world. Learning the language is a continuing journey into the hearts and minds of Thai people. It's a joy and a privelage to live among these people and their art, religion, culture, language, food, and of course the beautiful country. I do my best to show respect so as to not offend my hosts, and that of course requires effort to understand the culture to some degree. But for me that is part of the joy of life here.

I have no idea why anyone would want to spend years of their life in a country without being interested in the local culture. The most boring aspect of life in Thailand is the thousands upon thousands of expats (not to mention sexpats) who eat bland stodgy artery clogging farang food, listen to 70's MOR pop/rock, and complain they can't get a beer on Mahabucha day. One has to wonder why they live here.

...but do you think that anyone coming to live in Thailand should be forced to learn Thai, and fit into the Thai culture, or get out?

Not at all. In fact the whole point of Heinz' post (if I understood correctly) is that it's wrong to force people to accept another culture. I think it's best to accept the culture that you live in. That's why I wonder why people want to live in Thailand but in a little farang-land bubble. What's the point?

[English_Bob]

Not at all. In fact the whole point of Heinz' post (if I understood correctly) is that it's wrong to force people to accept another culture. I think it's best to accept the culture that you live in. That's why I wonder why people want to live in Thailand but in a little farang-land bubble. What's the point?

See, I don't think that's the point of Heinz's post... If it is, that's why I want him to clarify.

He seems to be saying that the Austrian government are forcing native Austrians to follow (not accept) the culture of immigrants.

I can't believe that is the case. I can believe the government encourage tolerance and acceptance. But forcing natural-born Austrians to be a part of a foreign culture doesn't sound feasible. That's what I don't understand and why I want him to cite specific examples.

For those people who live in a 'farang-land bubble', I think it's quite natural... they used to be called ghettos. It's where people live and enjoy the benefits of Thailand (weather, cheap lifestyle, pretty girls) and still enjoy the comforts of home (their own language, food and festivals)

I love living in Thailand, but I don't want to turn native. I see no reason why I can't take some aspects of Thai culture (tolerance, friendliness, love of fun) and blend it with parts of my Western culture.

[DANNO]

I think what Hentz was trying to say ---

(EB you're right he sure is short on specifics to the point of avoidance)

... is he felt he was being required to tolerate their native culture at the expense of his -- forced to even assimilate their customs into local his traditions....

he would expect to bend to another counrty's customs when in that counrty...like say taking one shoes off upon entering a Thai household

come on Hentz !!! tell us what you really mean!

[pandorea]

Who the **** is Hentz?

Damn you immigants. Stay where you are, don't move anywhere specially if your your skin colour is different colour than people in the country where you want to move.

Damn me, why bother!!! coffee anyone?