Swiss ban new mosque minaret construction

[Damnam1]

Sorry for calling you Nicky, of course you arent.

Of course every german here in this forum is considered as a Nazi. It cant be different considering the number of native english speakers being full of prejudice against my people. Even if I deliver facts and links, which are pretty easy to understand, written in easy german especially for people using translation tools like google, you wont believe me.

Do you really think that the crime situation has gotten better in the last decade ? I can tell you that it has gotten worse facing the numbers of crime committed by ethnic minorities. Facts, facts, open your eyes, read what is going on and you wont need a 2008 statisitc. I will let you know if I find the latest. But even then I doubt that you will be convinced as you just cant hide your antipathy..

I have been working as a foreign police officer and I know what I am writing about. Your knowledge about muslims in Europe, especially from former Yugoslavia displays a significant lack of depth. Google for yourself to find out about the percentage of muslims in Montenegro, Bosnia and elsewhere Balcan countries.

This discussion is not leading nowhere, since most of you dont have the opportunity to get first hand information on the situation over here. The question still is - why is it that some ethnic minorities keep the supply of negative headlines coming ? Why is it that especially young muslims refuse to integrate into society although their parents or grandparents wanted to provide them a better future ? Instead of progress german muslims are moving backwards into history, sticking to religious traditions, which are already outdated in their home countries. In Istanbul the popluation is far more progressive as over here. Their poverty, their ignorance and the firm will not to integrate into german society, but to keep up out - of - date tradition is leading into a dead end street.

Murders of honour, committed by brothers and family members , if their sisters prefer to live a western kind of life, are becoming daily routine. In the heart of Europe, our christian values are disobeyed and tramped under foot. The majority approves to ignore our legal system and prefers to live according to their archaic religious rules, where women are treated as a piece of personal belonging of her husband, married against their will and imported from under-developped parts of Kurdistan, kept and locked up at their home, denied every chance to develop according to our standards. This is nothing but the truth and I invite to to be my guest at my home and have a look behind the curtains if you are seriously interested in this field.

There are 38 mosques in the country of Baden-Wuerttemberg, southwest Germany,along side the border to France and Switzerland to Austria. 38 mosques ! There are hundreds in Germany. Now how many christian churches are there in Turkey ? You wanted facts - so now tell me who is liberal and who is not. How many churches are there in Turkey or in any other muslim country ? Tell me please..there is none, zero. Any approach in the past to establish a christian church, be it protestant or catholiic communities has been abolished by turkish government. But I know, I am a Nazi in your eyes, of course, always a fine excuse if there are no more facts to lay on the table..

Humboldt said that the most dangerous view of the world is the view of the people who havent seen the world..

[Stramash]

There are 38 mosques in the country of Baden-Wuerttemberg, southwest Germany,along side the border to France and Switzerland to Austria. 38 mosques ! There are hundreds in Germany. Now how many christian churches are there in Turkey ? You wanted facts - so now tell me who is liberal and who is not. How many churches are there in Turkey or in any other muslim country ? Tell me please..there is none, zero...

Given that there are only 100,000 or so Christians in Turkey, there are actually around 300 Christian churches. Istanbul is also the site of the ecunemical capital of Greek Orthodoxy. Not to mention the many historical Christian sites.

Saudi Arabia is in talks with the Vatican about building the first Christian church there and Qatar has just opened their first church. Slow progress I grant you, but progress nonetheless.

This is interesting reading on the subject;

http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996016448&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE.

[Guest iamsamtoo]

Isn't this what democracy is all about? Giving the majority what they want?

... without stepping on the rights of anyone. Allowing everyone the same rights is one of the pillars of democracy.

[Guest iamsamtoo]

The government will overturn the will of the people. It is happening in more places than I care to count. The Swiss govt. and Europe will not let this stand...

Dont get your hopes up.

[Guest iamsamtoo]

I'd rather speak to a drunken open minded man, than a bigoted sober one any day.

:thumbleft:

[English_Bob]

Isn't this what democracy is all about? Giving the majority what they want?

... without stepping on the rights of anyone. Allowing everyone the same rights is one of the pillars of democracy.

A democratic government decides what people's rights are.

Everybody does not have the same rights. Rastafarians cannot legally smoke cannabis in UK. There are laws about sacrificing animals.

There was a thread a few weeks ago whose thrust was that immigrants should integrate more and respect local laws.

In Thailand, there are places where I am charged extra because I am an immigrant - despite the fact I pay taxes at the same rate as Thai people. Also banking regulations and credit facilities are weighted against immigrants.

These are the laws of the country.

What should I do? Sue the Thai government?

[CiaranM]

interesting article in todays Guardian ....

It's a crude reaction but it's the first one I had on hearing that the Swiss had voted to ban the building of minarets on mosques – the same reaction I have to the increasingly-frequent stories like it: how would I feel if this were not about them, but us? How, in other words, would I react if this latest attack were not on Muslims but on Jews?

It's crude because no two situations are ever exactly the same, and Muslims and Jews have different histories – in Switzerland and everywhere else. But it's useful, allowing the testing of any proposition against an almost instinctive yardstick of decency.

So how would I react if the Swiss voted to restrict the way synagogues are built? With horror, of course. Indeed, the mere hint of such a proposal in the heart of Europe – given the blood-soaked history of the 20th century – would send a shudder down the collective spine. That reaction alone would tell me that, on this proposal, there was only one decent place to be – against it.

Or take Jack Straw's campaign against the niqab in 2006. He and his supporters made what they hoped was a subtle, nuanced case against women wearing the full veil, but my first thought was much simpler. What if a government minister told ultra-orthodox Jewish men that, in their full beards, it was hard to tell them apart, or that he disliked the custom that commands ultra-orthodox Jewish women to cut off their hair, covering their heads with either a wig or a hat? No matter how subtle or nuanced his reasons, I would feel that this was, at best, an act of bullying directed at a vulnerable minority or, at worst, the first step towards something much more menacing.

I'm clearly not the only who thinks this way, submitting proposed anti-Muslim actions to an informal "Jewish test". It seems the proponents of the minaret ban proceeded the same way. According to Tariq Ramadan, the initial target of the Union Démocratique du Centre (UDC) campaign was due to be the Islamic method of animal slaughter – until the UDC realised that Jews, who also rely on ritual slaughter to produce kosher food, would immediately feel threatened. So they moved onto minarets, apparently confident that they had found an issue with few Jewish resonances (synagogue buildings rarely have an impact on the skyline and are often pretty inconspicuous).

Of course, not everyone who voted yes on the Swiss referendum was some Islamophobe or racist. Some, as Joan Smith argues, had wholly admirable secularist motives. Indeed Smith makes a strong case for holding a larger discussion about the role of religion in public life and expresses frustration that we cannot seem to have a mature conversation about, for example, which symbols belong in public and which don't. I would welcome that conversation. I think we should have it. But here's a suggestion. Let's make sure that, for once, it doesn't start with the Muslims.

For example, here in Britain, we should have that debate about faith schools. But let's begin with a proposal to close down the 7000 Christian schools in the state sector – and then move onto the Muslim schools. Or do I sense that there will be rather fewer takers for that conversation?

What passionate secularists and atheists need to understand is that what seems to outsiders like a religious affiliation is, for many millions, only partly about faith. It's often partly, even largely, about identity. How can I be so sure that's true of Muslims? Because I know it's true of Jews.

Which leads me to guess that the minaret ban will have one consequence its advocates did not predict. I reckon there'll be rather more Swiss Muslims going to the mosque this week than there were last. That's how people react when they're threatened. Don't ask me how I know.

[beej]

Sorry for calling you Nicky, of course you arent.

Of course every german here in this forum is considered as a Nazi. It cant be different considering the number of native english speakers being full of prejudice against my people. Even if I deliver facts and links, which are pretty easy to understand, written in easy german especially for people using translation tools like google, you wont believe me.

Do you really think that the crime situation has gotten better in the last decade ? I can tell you that it has gotten worse facing the numbers of crime committed by ethnic minorities. Facts, facts, open your eyes, read what is going on and you wont need a 2008 statisitc. I will let you know if I find the latest. But even then I doubt that you will be convinced as you just cant hide your antipathy..

I have been working as a foreign police officer and I know what I am writing about. Your knowledge about muslims in Europe, especially from former Yugoslavia displays a significant lack of depth. Google for yourself to find out about the percentage of muslims in Montenegro, Bosnia and elsewhere Balcan countries.

This discussion is not leading nowhere, since most of you dont have the opportunity to get first hand information on the situation over here. The question still is - why is it that some ethnic minorities keep the supply of negative headlines coming ? Why is it that especially young muslims refuse to integrate into society although their parents or grandparents wanted to provide them a better future ? Instead of progress german muslims are moving backwards into history, sticking to religious traditions, which are already outdated in their home countries. In Istanbul the popluation is far more progressive as over here. Their poverty, their ignorance and the firm will not to integrate into german society, but to keep up out - of - date tradition is leading into a dead end street.

Murders of honour, committed by brothers and family members , if their sisters prefer to live a western kind of life, are becoming daily routine. In the heart of Europe, our christian values are disobeyed and tramped under foot. The majority approves to ignore our legal system and prefers to live according to their archaic religious rules, where women are treated as a piece of personal belonging of her husband, married against their will and imported from under-developped parts of Kurdistan, kept and locked up at their home, denied every chance to develop according to our standards. This is nothing but the truth and I invite to to be my guest at my home and have a look behind the curtains if you are seriously interested in this field.

There are 38 mosques in the country of Baden-Wuerttemberg, southwest Germany,along side the border to France and Switzerland to Austria. 38 mosques ! There are hundreds in Germany. Now how many christian churches are there in Turkey ? You wanted facts - so now tell me who is liberal and who is not. How many churches are there in Turkey or in any other muslim country ? Tell me please..there is none, zero. Any approach in the past to establish a christian church, be it protestant or catholiic communities has been abolished by turkish government. But I know, I am a Nazi in your eyes, of course, always a fine excuse if there are no more facts to lay on the table..

Humboldt said that the most dangerous view of the world is the view of the people who havent seen the world..

You sir are the medias dream, a sponge sucking up all the 'facts' and 'fiction they feed you.

Step back from it all an as you say......

Humboldt said that the most dangerous view of the world is the view of the people who havent seen the world..

[GM]

Isn't this what democracy is all about? Giving the majority what they want?

... without stepping on the rights of anyone. Allowing everyone the same rights is one of the pillars of democracy.

A democratic government decides what people's rights are.

Everybody does not have the same rights. Rastafarians cannot legally smoke cannabis in UK. There are laws about sacrificing animals.

There was a thread a few weeks ago whose thrust was that immigrants should integrate more and respect local laws.

In Thailand, there are places where I am charged extra because I am an immigrant - despite the fact I pay taxes at the same rate as Thai people. Also banking regulations and credit facilities are weighted against immigrants.

These are the laws of the country.

What should I do? Sue the Thai government?

EB.. I might wrong about this (the story was not very clear on the issue) but aren't many of those Muslims Swiss citizens? Shouldn't they, as citizens, have the freedom to practice their religion without the gov't dictating the way in which they practice?

I would have to read what fundamental rights the Swiss constitution spells out.

[English_Bob]

Isn't this what democracy is all about? Giving the majority what they want?

... without stepping on the rights of anyone. Allowing everyone the same rights is one of the pillars of democracy.

A democratic government decides what people's rights are.

Everybody does not have the same rights. Rastafarians cannot legally smoke cannabis in UK. There are laws about sacrificing animals.

There was a thread a few weeks ago whose thrust was that immigrants should integrate more and respect local laws.

In Thailand, there are places where I am charged extra because I am an immigrant - despite the fact I pay taxes at the same rate as Thai people. Also banking regulations and credit facilities are weighted against immigrants.

These are the laws of the country.

What should I do? Sue the Thai government?

EB.. I might wrong about this (the story was not very clear on the issue) but aren't many of those Muslims Swiss citizens? Shouldn't they, as citizens, have the freedom to practice their religion without the gov't dictating the way in which they practice?

I would have to read what fundamental rights the Swiss constitution spells out.

The Swiss Government held a referendum.

The majority of Swiss voted to ban the construction of further minarets.

The decision only affects the appearance of mosques - the Swiss prefer their skyline not to include minarets.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, I'm pretty sure the real reason people voted for the ban is nothing to do with minarets at all. Almost certainly it's because the majority of Swiss people don't like Muslims or fear an influx of Muslims.

Well, distasteful as that may be, that's democracy in action.

Let's face it... Muslims have a bad reputation in the western world. Terrorism being a large part of it. But the responsibility to change that perception sits squarely with Muslims. If my religion were being hijacked by terrorists and atrocities were carried out in my name, I would want the world to know that isn't the view point of most Muslims. I would want my government to hunt down the terrorists and bring them to trial.

If the poor reputation that Muslims hold is the result of a biased media campaign, then shouldn't Muslims be doing everything in their power to prove the opposite is true?

When the twin towers were struck, and cameras showed thousands of Egyptians and Pakistanis dancing and cheering in the streets, where were the security forces?

When the firebrand Islamic scholars preach death and destruction to infidels, where is the condemnation? Why is no-one arrested?

I believe people are scared of this religion - and if the reputation is unjustified, then Muslims need to show this to the world or accept the cold welcome.

[GM]

Definitely agree about the "real reason". I'm no fan of religion. I disdain it. But aren't Minarets a standard part of a mosque? And as citizens aren't they entitled to practice their religion in traditional houses of worship that adhere to their religion. While it maybe the majority that voted for it, it seems that democracy is being used to oppress a minority or impede on basic rights granted to them as citizens under their constitution.

I will be interested to see if it stands up to constitutional scrutiny. Per Wiki the Swiss constitution adheres to the fundamental rights guaranteed in the European Convention on Human Rights. So it sounds like this will be battled out in court for some time to come.

[lizardo]

I think Muslim countries should ban holes in cheese and yodeling...that would show them damn Swiss!!

[LakeGeneve]

Hi Nicky,

Umm, you can call me LG if your replying to my request. Nicky is a wonderful mod with a good eye using a camera and some very creative design talents. Both of which I lack. :oops:

though you wear the same dress size... :wink:

I've put on a few kgs lately so I need to go out and buy some a new mini!

[LakeGeneve]

Sorry for calling you Nicky, of course you arent.

Well only when I put some lippy and a mini-skirt... :wink:

Of course every german here in this forum is considered as a Nazi. It cant be different considering the number of native english speakers being full of prejudice against my people. Even if I deliver facts and links, which are pretty easy to understand, written in easy german especially for people using translation tools like google, you wont believe me.

Do you really think that the crime situation has gotten better in the last decade ? I can tell you that it has gotten worse facing the numbers of crime committed by ethnic minorities. Facts, facts, open your eyes, read what is going on and you wont need a 2008 statisitc. I will let you know if I find the latest. But even then I doubt that you will be convinced as you just cant hide your antipathy..

I have been working as a foreign police officer and I know what I am writing about.

I don't get the sense that every German in this forum is considered a nazi, only the one expressing views which sound concerningly reminiscent of a time 80 years ago in your country.

I did ask you to provide some facts to back up your claim, "while crime rate of young islamic ethnic minorities in western european countries is a proven fact and constantly rising." I don't know if it is true or not I just asked you to provide some evidence. I do appreciate that you made an effort.

However, you posted some sort of criminal stats of foreigners from 1999 and then others from 2006 which did not really say much at all. No real explanation of what they are or a context. And you neglected to post the absolute figures including Germans so we don't even have a snapshot of the total picture.

So now you disclose that your a police officer but yet you cannot seem to furnish this forum with evidence and facts supporting your claims. You state that it is so self evident, that may well be, yet you provide nothing but your opinions on the matter.

I would hope that this is not reflective of the policing modus operandi in your area as one of the statistical facts in many jurisdictions as to why SOME minorities are over-represented in criminal stats is due to over-policing and targetting of those minorities by police.

Your knowledge about muslims in Europe, especially from former Yugoslavia displays a significant lack of depth. Google for yourself to find out about the percentage of muslims in Montenegro, Bosnia and elsewhere Balcan countries.

Yes I will admit that my knowledge of the Balkans is limited having never been to any of those countries except Croatia briefly. I did include Bosians in the total but you seem to have missed that. I didn't include Croatian (mainly catholics) nor Serbians (mainly Serbian Orthodox).

Checking Wiki now, "The main religions of Croatia are Roman Catholic 88%, Orthodox 4.4%, other Christian 0.4%, Muslim 1.3%, other and unspecified 0.9%, none 5.2%." Montenegro is listed as 17.74% muslim and Serbia 3.42% islam. So I will admit my "significant lack of depth" but in actual fact my intial interpretation was correct. Do you wish to admit that you just seem to be blatantly ignorant to facts due to your prejudice?

This discussion is not leading nowhere, since most of you dont have the opportunity to get first hand information on the situation over here. The question still is - why is it that some ethnic minorities keep the supply of negative headlines coming ?

Yes we don't have the first hand info which is why you were asked to provide some facts and more substance to support your views. This is what healthy debate should be about, expressing various views yet when asserting claims one should be able to support them based on fact.

I never disagreed with your claims only that you provide some factual evidence. I also asked you to detail the areas and cities regarding, "I dont want to become a stranger in my own country but parts of the cities are in the hands of ethnic minorities at night", yet you still have not done so. Again, I don't know the truth, I am just asking you to provide some examples based on facts. So far your claims seem very tenuous and highly prejudicial.

Murders of honour, committed by brothers and family members , if their sisters prefer to live a western kind of life, are becoming daily routine. In the heart of Europe, our christian values are disobeyed and tramped under foot. The majority approves to ignore our legal system and prefers to live according to their archaic religious rules, where women are treated as a piece of personal belonging of her husband, married against their will and imported from under-developped parts of Kurdistan, kept and locked up at their home, denied every chance to develop according to our standards. This is nothing but the truth and I invite to to be my guest at my home and have a look behind the curtains if you are seriously interested in this field.

How exactly are "our christian values are disobeyed and tramped under foot". Are you stating that a very small minority of people are somehow restricting, suppressing or limiting the religious rights and practices of an overwhelming majority?! I find that difficult to believe but again post some factual examples pls.

Honours killings are a real problem in some ethnic communities as is the treatment and status of women. The German govt and the EU from the little I know has implemented some great policies in relation to reducing honour killings and prosecuting those offenders. The EU has also influenced Turkey in a postive way on this issue. I don't know how you say people can "ignore our legal system". Surely, if anyone breaks German law they are liable to criminal prosecution?

The treatment of women is a very real concern and should be a priority for all societies to eradicate. However, you can't seriously be suggesting that violence against women is not committed by non-muslim Germans?!!! As someone who has worked in Afghanistan and Sudan I have documented first hand the horrors that many women endure but equally the status of women in some christian countries is appalling - one only has to look at the huge number of rapes in South Africa.

Violence against women it is not something historically or contemporariously exclusive to one religious or enthic group. Women have been treated badly by all religions and in the majority of enthic contexts I think it is safe to say. Not all 'western or christian' countries are always squeaky clean on the issue of womens rights. According to a 2003 european report on rape in europe, Germany only criminalised rape in marriage in 1997!!! Maybe the report is wrong but that is very recently, only just over a decade ago. The USA has not even ratified CEDAW for goodness sake!

There is an old saying 'don't throw stones in glasshouses' - I am sure there is a German one as well.

Humboldt said that the most dangerous view of the world is the view of the people who havent seen the world.

I am sure someone else said that is is even more dangerous to have seen the world and yet have not opened your eyes! :roll:

[PeeMarc]

Sorry for calling you Nicky, of course you arent.

Well only when I put some lippy and a mini-skirt... :wink:

Of course every german here in this forum is considered as a Nazi. It cant be different considering the number of native english speakers being full of prejudice against my people. Even if I deliver facts and links, which are pretty easy to understand, written in easy german especially for people using translation tools like google, you wont believe me.

Do you really think that the crime situation has gotten better in the last decade ? I can tell you that it has gotten worse facing the numbers of crime committed by ethnic minorities. Facts, facts, open your eyes, read what is going on and you wont need a 2008 statisitc. I will let you know if I find the latest. But even then I doubt that you will be convinced as you just cant hide your antipathy..

I have been working as a foreign police officer and I know what I am writing about.

I don't get the sense that every German in this forum is considered a nazi, only the one expressing views which sound concerningly reminiscent of a time 80 years ago in your country.

I did ask you to provide some facts to back up your claim, "while crime rate of young islamic ethnic minorities in western european countries is a proven fact and constantly rising." I don't know if it is true or not I just asked you to provide some evidence. I do appreciate that you made an effort.

However, you posted some sort of criminal stats of foreigners from 1999 and then others from 2006 which did not really say much at all. No real explanation of what they are or a context. And you neglected to post the absolute figures including Germans so we don't even have a snapshot of the total picture.

So now you disclose that your a police officer but yet you cannot seem to furnish this forum with evidence and facts supporting your claims. You state that it is so self evident, that may well be, yet you provide nothing but your opinions on the matter.

I would hope that this is not reflective of the policing modus operandi in your area as one of the statistical facts in many jurisdictions as to why SOME minorities are over-represented in criminal stats is due to over-policing and targetting of those minorities by police.

Your knowledge about muslims in Europe, especially from former Yugoslavia displays a significant lack of depth. Google for yourself to find out about the percentage of muslims in Montenegro, Bosnia and elsewhere Balcan countries.

Yes I will admit that my knowledge of the Balkans is limited having never been to any of those countries except Croatia briefly. I did include Bosians in the total but you seem to have missed that. I didn't include Croatian (mainly catholics) nor Serbians (mainly Serbian Orthodox).

Checking Wiki now, "The main religions of Croatia are Roman Catholic 88%, Orthodox 4.4%, other Christian 0.4%, Muslim 1.3%, other and unspecified 0.9%, none 5.2%." Montenegro is listed as 17.74% muslim and Serbia 3.42% islam. So I will admit my "significant lack of depth" but in actual fact my intial interpretation was correct. Do you wish to admit that you just seem to be blatantly ignorant to facts due to your prejudice?

This discussion is not leading nowhere, since most of you dont have the opportunity to get first hand information on the situation over here. The question still is - why is it that some ethnic minorities keep the supply of negative headlines coming ?

Yes we don't have the first hand info which is why you were asked to provide some facts and more substance to support your views. This is what healthy debate should be about, expressing various views yet when asserting claims one should be able to support them based on fact.

I never disagreed with your claims only that you provide some factual evidence. I also asked you to detail the areas and cities regarding, "I dont want to become a stranger in my own country but parts of the cities are in the hands of ethnic minorities at night", yet you still have not done so. Again, I don't know the truth, I am just asking you to provide some examples based on facts. So far your claims seem very tenuous and highly prejudicial.

Murders of honour, committed by brothers and family members , if their sisters prefer to live a western kind of life, are becoming daily routine. In the heart of Europe, our christian values are disobeyed and tramped under foot. The majority approves to ignore our legal system and prefers to live according to their archaic religious rules, where women are treated as a piece of personal belonging of her husband, married against their will and imported from under-developped parts of Kurdistan, kept and locked up at their home, denied every chance to develop according to our standards. This is nothing but the truth and I invite to to be my guest at my home and have a look behind the curtains if you are seriously interested in this field.

How exactly are "our christian values are disobeyed and tramped under foot". Are you stating that a very small minority of people are somehow restricting, suppressing or limiting the religious rights and practices of an overwhelming majority?! I find that difficult to believe but again post some factual examples pls.

Honours killings are a real problem in some ethnic communities as is the treatment and status of women. The German govt and the EU from the little I know has implemented some great policies in relation to reducing honour killings and prosecuting those offenders. The EU has also influenced Turkey in a postive way on this issue. I don't know how you say people can "ignore our legal system". Surely, if anyone breaks German law they are liable to criminal prosecution?

The treatment of women is a very real concern and should be a priority for all societies to eradicate. However, you can't seriously be suggesting that violence against women is not committed by non-muslim Germans?!!! As someone who has worked in Afghanistan and Sudan I have documented first hand the horrors that many women endure but equally the status of women in some christian countries is appalling - one only has to look at the huge number of rapes in South Africa.

Violence against women it is not something historically or contemporariously exclusive to one religious or enthic group. Women have been treated badly by all religions and in the majority of enthic contexts I think it is safe to say. Not all 'western or christian' countries are always squeaky clean on the issue of womens rights. According to a 2003 european report on rape in europe, Germany only criminalised rape in marriage in 1997!!! Maybe the report is wrong but that is very recently, only just over a decade ago. The USA has not even ratified CEDAW for goodness sake!

There is an old saying 'don't throw stones in glasshouses' - I am sure there is a German one as well.

Humboldt said that the most dangerous view of the world is the view of the people who havent seen the world.

I am sure someone else said that is is even more dangerous to have seen the world and yet have not opened your eyes! :roll:

youre doing well lately LG. Got a new batch of coffee or something? its clearly working :salute:

[PeeMarc]

actually, I rather like Muslim architecture. Should be more of it. Not as crazy and over the top as Hindu stuff, but it's aw-rite. Silly Swiss. So damned sensible and practical.

[Guest iamsamtoo]

Humboldt said that the most dangerous view of the world is the view of the people who havent seen the world.

I am sure someone else said that is is even more dangerous to have seen the world and yet have not opened your eyes! :roll:

Someone did say: The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.Stephen Hawking

Although I like your version as well LG, and with any luck it will always be quoted with a " :roll: "

[English_Bob]

Someone did say: The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.Stephen Hawking

Yeah... you know I'm not sure sure we should trust that Stephen Hawking guy...

Everyone thinks he's so smart and he knows the answers to all the questions... but how do we know he's not just looking them up on that computer on his wheelchair?

[Stramash]

Someone did say: The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.Stephen Hawking

Yeah... you know I'm not sure sure we should trust that Stephen Hawking guy...

Everyone thinks he's so smart and he knows the answers to all the questions... but how do we know he's not just looking them up on that computer on his wheelchair?

I love it when people 'borrow' from my facebook status updates...

:wink:

[Guest iamsamtoo]

Someone did say: The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.Stephen Hawking

Yeah... you know I'm not sure sure we should trust that Stephen Hawking guy...

Everyone thinks he's so smart and he knows the answers to all the questions... but how do we know he's not just looking them up on that computer on his wheelchair?

I love it when people 'borrow' from my facebook status updates...

:wink:

Then its settled. From here on all Stephen Hawking references will be replaced with Iain_D

[Stramash]

Someone did say: The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.Stephen Hawking

Yeah... you know I'm not sure sure we should trust that Stephen Hawking guy...

Everyone thinks he's so smart and he knows the answers to all the questions... but how do we know he's not just looking them up on that computer on his wheelchair?

I love it when people 'borrow' from my facebook status updates...

:wink:

Then its settled. From here on all Stephen Hawking references will be replaced with Iain_D

how do you give Stephen Hawking an erection??

disable his pop up blocker.

[LakeGeneve]

youre doing well lately LG. Got a new batch of coffee or something? its clearly working :salute:

Nah mate, never drunk coffee in my life..... dangerous stuff. (Sorry Cherie).

It is due to that mix of amyl, absinthe & special K that you have been making me take before my veggies! :shock:

[LakeGeneve]

Wondering where the policeman Damnam1 has gone?

I am still open to the possibility of your claims being true but where is the evidence with a few facts that you said you were going to provide?