Drugs, man!

[pandorea]

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/05/portugal-drugs-debate

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303411604575168231982388308.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/10/25/us-swiss-drugs-idUSTRE69O3VI20101025

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/44417.php

Good lordly, everyday there is something new to learn. Surly will give it a try. Tak!

[Stramash]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070417193338.htm

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Support/marijuana

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/25/AR2006052501729.html

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2011/03/national_cancer_institute_adds.php

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/about-multiple-sclerosis/what-we-know-about-ms/treatments/complementary--alternative-medicine/marijuana/index.aspx

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/about-multiple-sclerosis/what-we-know-about-ms/treatments/complementary--alternative-medicine/marijuana/index.aspx

http://www.myprimetime.com/health/fearless_aging/content/aweil/index.shtml

http://www.myprimetime.com/health/fearless_aging/content/aweil/index.shtml

http://www.oprah.com/health/PTSD-and-MDMA-Therapy-Medical-Uses-of-Ecstasy/ (sheeeeit I am linking to Oprah)

[pandorea]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070417193338.htm

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Support/marijuana

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/25/AR2006052501729.html

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2011/03/national_cancer_institute_adds.php

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/about-multiple-sclerosis/what-we-know-about-ms/treatments/complementary--alternative-medicine/marijuana/index.aspx

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/about-multiple-sclerosis/what-we-know-about-ms/treatments/complementary--alternative-medicine/marijuana/index.aspx

http://www.myprimetime.com/health/fearless_aging/content/aweil/index.shtml

http://www.myprimetime.com/health/fearless_aging/content/aweil/index.shtml

http://www.oprah.com/health/PTSD-and-MDMA-Therapy-Medical-Uses-of-Ecstasy/ (sheeeeit I am linking to Oprah)

Now it's getting overwhelming Iain. I need a new pair of spectacles (see? I don't use the word "glasses".. living in Europe is privilege!!!

[Stramash]

Now it's getting overwhelming Iain. I need a new pair of spectacles (see? I don't use the word "glasses".. living in Europe is privilege!!!

The first lot of links are mainly around policy, particularly the successes of the systems in Switzerland and Portugal.

The second lot are on the medical benefits of MDMA and cannabis, including how cannabis may help cure some cancers.

[Stramash]

so, the question is "why more people use alcohol irresponsibly than any other drug?" because it's legal???? it's easier to buy than drugs, and so they don't feel that they do something wrong.

The main answer to that is simple Nicky; because drinking is mostly culturally and socially acceptable.

[pandorea]

The main answer to that is simple Nicky; because drinking is mostly culturally and socially acceptable.

and if they didn't make Heroin illegal, it will be mostly culturally and socially acceptable too. Am I right or am I right???

[kaunitz]

More naivete.

Well, this does not have anything to do with naivete because -

More people use alcohol irresponsibly than any other drug. Fact. No matter how you look at it; from health service figures to crime figures, alcohol is the root cause of more problems than anything else.

- And here we are: You are looking at it from the quantity side, and from there, you are absolutely right. I am looking at it from the quality side, and there, heroine for sure is much more dangerous than alcohol. This has nothing to do with being naive!

My point is we have to differentiate between the criminal using heroin daily (and stealing to feed habit) and the student or lecturer or engineer or artist using a bit of weed now and again.

But here, we also are again on the quality side - there is a big difference between H and weed!

The evidence base I am discussing is unquestionable and involves health and social work professionals, social workers, probation officers and service users themselves.

So this is a proof of my words before about statistics. Not that you are wrong - au contraire, mon ami! - but this is one side of the medal and I am looking at the other one.

[Stramash]

and if they didn't make Heroin illegal, it will be mostly culturally and socially acceptable too. Am I right or am I right???

No, you're wrong. IV use of heroin is not a sociable pastime. It's not like sharing a bottle of wine. Problematic heroin users tend to be solitary and selfish. Drinking is more 'open'.

[kaunitz]

The main answer to that is simple Nicky; because drinking is mostly culturally and socially acceptable.

Cocaine and Heroine were also socially acceptable until the 1920's...

[kaunitz]

No, you're wrong. IV use of heroin is not a sociable pastime. It's not like sharing a bottle of wine. Problematic heroin users tend to be solitary and selfish. Drinking is more 'open'.

Generally yes, but don't forget the lonely boozer!

[Stramash]

Well, this does not have anything to do with naivete because - - And here we are: You are looking at it from the quantity side, and from there, you are absolutely right. I am looking at it from the quality side, and there, heroine for sure is much more dangerous than alcohol. This has nothing to do with being naive!

But here, we also are again on the quality side - there is a big difference between H and weed!

So this is a proof of my words before about statistics. Not that you are wrong - au contraire, mon ami! - but this is one side of the medal and I am looking at the other one.

Again, and sorry for this, you are wrong. Alcohol IS more dangerous, on all levels. I am not just stating an opinion, I am coming from many years of experience of working with drug users, working with drugs professionals, seeing the misery both alcohol and heroin cause to families and communities. I have seen the reality nearly every day, I have listened to the users, the doctors, the children, the parents, the families. Knowledge in this field has been my life, off and on, since 1988. I have found dead clients, I have signed the paper that takes children away from neglectful families. I see the problems and I see the answers.

Once again I am not advocating the legalisation, decriminalisation or regulation for ANY of the high harm drugs. Prescription as last resort yes but none of the other options.

The war on drugs, in its current form, is lost. Even Fox think so;

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/05/13/ap-impact-years-trillion-war-drugs-failed-meet-goals/

[Stramash]

Generally yes, but don't forget the lonely boozer!

The lonely boozer is often the one with the problem.:twisted:

[Stramash]

Cocaine and Heroine were also socially acceptable until the 1920's...

But NEVER as widespread as alcohol...

[kaunitz]

Again, and sorry for this, you are wrong.

Still, I don't think that I'm wrong. As you are highlighting one side (the quantity), I felt like highlighting the other side (the quality). I think that if we put both sides together, a real picture can be drawn, which for sure does not mean that you are wrong. But have you ever thought about the fact that it is far easier to become an alcohol addict than a heroine addict just because of the ways of access to the respective drug? Whatever, I am not denying that alcohol abuse HAS desastrous consequences, not only for the addicted but also for the people around him, so I think in this point we agree. And I also think that we agree on the point that smoking weed every now and then is not really a problem (except when you get caught by police). But still, my opinion is that there are drugs that you can consume in a responsible way and that do not harm you or others when used like this (by the way - caffeine also is a drug!) whereas there are others that do not possess these specifications. And there, you might be wrong at one point: Heroine was banned because even the "sniffers" got addicted very quickly. Other drugs I would see as harmful are cocaine, opium, morphium and of course all of those synthetic drugs (including, but not limited to...).

Once again I am not advocating the legalisation, decriminalisation or regulation for ANY of the high harm drugs.

Well, I think that this is something that none of the posters here accused you of!

The war on drugs, in its current form, is lost.

There, I am 120% with you! I've seen Yemen coming to a standstill every afternoon because of Qat, just to mention one not so prominent drug.

Of course, you will have a deeper insight than me as you are working with these poor creatures and their even poorer entourage for more than 20 years now but I think that this also might result in a kind of "blinders". Please take this into consideration, Iain!

[kaunitz]

The lonely boozer is often the one with the problem.:twisted:

I don't think "often" - I'd say "always"!

[kaunitz]

But NEVER as widespread as alcohol...

But they were banned - alcohol not. Question now is WHY?

[CiaranM]

The lonely boozer is often the one with the problem.:twisted:

u r never lonely with a bottle of beer !!

[CiaranM]

Again, and sorry for this, you are wrong. Alcohol IS more dangerous, on all levels. I am not just stating an opinion, I am coming from many years of experience of working with drug users, working with drugs professionals, seeing the misery both alcohol and heroin cause to families and communities. I have seen the reality nearly every day, I have listened to the users, the doctors, the children, the parents, the families. Knowledge in this field has been my life, off and on, since 1988. I have found dead clients, I have signed the paper that takes children away from neglectful families. I see the problems and I see the answers.

Once again I am not advocating the legalisation, decriminalisation or regulation for ANY of the high harm drugs. Prescription as last resort yes but none of the other options.

The war on drugs, in its current form, is lost. Even Fox think so;

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/05/13/ap-impact-years-trillion-war-drugs-failed-meet-goals/

while i accept u have a lot more experience in this field than most of us Iain i find it hard to get my head around alcohol being

more dangerous than herion or crack cocaine !! would not the fact that alcohol is more readily available and more socially acceptable mean that u r more likely to see cases involving alcohol abuse rather than hard drug use !!

would be interesting (if available) to see the % of alcohol users who end up dependant and/or abusive compared to % of "hard drug" users !!

[Stramash]

while i accept u have a lot more experience in this field than most of us Iain i find it hard to get my head around alcohol being

more dangerous than herion or crack cocaine !! would not the fact that alcohol is more readily available and more socially acceptable mean that u r more likely to see cases involving alcohol abuse rather than hard drug use !!

would be interesting (if available) to see the % of alcohol users who end up dependant and/or abusive compared to % of "hard drug" users !!

I know where you are coming from mate but you are thinking solely of the dangers to the users themselves. I am referring not only to that but to all the relative harms too; the violence, anti social behaviour, drunk driving etc. Of course the % of alcohol users who ends up dependent is less than that of H or crack. They are both more addictive - never disputed that. But I have yet to see a child protection case where, when heroin was involved, there was anything worse than neglect (not that neglect is not bad) whereas the cases I was involved in where alcohol was the factor has involved neglect, domestic violence and physical abuse of children.

One HUGE evil we have not even mentioned is diazepam. Especially when mixed with alcohol. Diazepam is the most poorly prescribed drug in the UK - and that can be blamed on the some of the most irresponsible drug dealers you will find - doctors!!!

[CiaranM]

I know where you are coming from mate but you are thinking solely of the dangers to the users themselves. I am referring not only to that but to all the relative harms too; the violence, anti social behaviour, drunk driving etc. Of course the % of alcohol users who ends up dependent is less than that of H or crack. They are both more addictive - never disputed that. But I have yet to see a child protection case where, when heroin was involved, there was anything worse than neglect (not that neglect is not bad) whereas the cases I was involved in where alcohol was the factor has involved neglect, domestic violence and physical abuse of children.

One HUGE evil we have not even mentioned is diazepam. Especially when mixed with alcohol. Diazepam is the most poorly prescribed drug in the UK - and that can be blamed on the some of the most irresponsible drug dealers you will find - doctors!!!

as i said mate ... u have a lot more experience in this field than me and the closest i ever came to contact with heavy heroin users was trainspotting !! wasn't that wide spread in nothern ireland in the 90's (and i haven't lived there since) and never really seemed to be that popular. although areas of dublin are supposed to some of the worst in europe for heroin use !!!!

i also seem to remember reading somewhere (i think) that burglary and general theft had a massive % attributted to drug users !!

Edited May 25, 2011 by CiaranM

[Admin_2]

If you've got a weak stomach and you don't want to see a body builder/steroid user's bicep explode...don't watch this!!

[Stramash]

as i said mate ... u have a lot more experience in this field than me and the closest i ever came to contact with heavy heroin users was trainspotting !! wasn't that wide spread in nothern ireland in the 90's (and i haven't lived there since) and never really seemed to be that popular. although areas of dublin are supposed to some of the worst in europe for heroin use !!!!

i also seem to remember reading somewhere (i think) that burglary and general theft had a massive % attributted to drug users !!

if you take into account other factors like already being involved in crime, social exclusion etc then the % of aquisitive crime attributable to drugs is around 25%. But alcohol is involved in over 50% of all violent crime. What hurts more? Getting your tv stolen or being stabbed?

[CiaranM]

if you take into account other factors like already being involved in crime, social exclusion etc then the % of aquisitive crime attributable to drugs is around 25%. But alcohol is involved in over 50% of all violent crime. What hurts more? Getting your tv stolen or being stabbed?

don't get me wrong Iain i agree with a lot of what u r saying .... but i would suggest that the % of "hard drug" users involved in crime is significantly higher than the % of alcohol users involved !!!

basically IMO .... ppl who use "hard drugs" r more likely to become dependant and a "burden" on society than ppl who use alcohol.

[Stramash]

don't get me wrong Iain i agree with a lot of what u r saying .... but i would suggest that the % of "hard drug" users involved in crime is significantly higher than the % of alcohol users involved !!!

basically IMO .... ppl who use "hard drugs" r more likely to become dependant and a "burden" on society than ppl who use alcohol.

Within the UK alcohol problems cost around 25 billion pounds a year. Class a drug use costs around 16 billion. These figures include health costs, crime and lost productivity.

[CiaranM]

Within the UK alcohol problems cost around 25 billion pounds a year. Class a drug use costs around 16 billion. These figures include health costs, crime and lost productivity.

Iain i think u r missing my point ... i would suggest that significantly more ppl use alcohol than class A drugs ... therefore the cost per "user" of "hard drugs" would be considerably higher !!! and i would suggest (guess) that users of MDMA (is it still a class A) would cost less than users of heroin, crack cocaine etc !!