Closing Suvanabhumi Airport b/c of PAD

[sunsnow]

Loburt: Yes, he is marxist. Good for him! Obama is socialist. Enuff said. Next patient.

[Loburt]

First, Obama is not a socialist.

Second, nothing wrong with letting people know what lens a political analyst is using to interpret events, and the fact that he is a firm believer in the completely discredited ideology of Marxism isn't stated anywhere in the original post.

I respect Ajarn Ji, even if I don't always agree with him.

[sunsnow]

OT:

I know Obama is not socialist. Anyone with half a brain cell knew how stupid it was to slap him with that title during the election campaign. But that is off topic, just tried to make a point.

Anyhow, the thing was it shoudnt matter being marxist or not, if you are to judge the content, not the person. I guess that is the reason why most times when he is quoted his political side is not mentioned, because most people share this "red-scare" and immediatly just put aside what the man is saying.

Also actually more so: how often you do see someones political party or political view mentioned when they are interviewed, especially when it comes interviewing people in the scientific community.

Yes, Ji is definetly hmm marxist/socialist. He got great ideas and not so great ideas. I feel that when he is gone, well seems this country is hanging on so few people who think different when it comes to politics and social issues.

//OT END

[Loburt]

OT:

I know Obama is not socialist. Anyone with half a brain cell knew how stupid it was to slap him with that title during the election campaign. But that is off topic, just tried to make a point.

and as usual, you failed miserably.

Ajarn Ji's core political views and ideology are of obvious relevance to his analysis of political events.

[sunsnow]

I know very well about Ji's writings. And that reading any of his columns in Prachatai that has been quoted here his ideologies come through to anyone who is not blind and stupid.

So, anything else you want to add? You saying "fail" and that ideology and p. views are relevance to his analysis. Yea, they are to him. But we are not discussing his political background, are we. Again, do not fall to that ad homimen thing or discussing about someones credentials or background when you should be discussing what that person is saying. Shouldn't you have added something with more substance than that comment and comment that "he is marxist"...

[Karnie]

i finally can get back home by CX tomorrow! YES!!!!!!!!!!

[Undercover]

Finally, a bit of actual investigative reporting on PAD, courtesy of the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7762806.stm

Here's an excerpt:

"One of the many retired generals supporting its occupation at the airport observed that it [PAD] should be seen as a military, not a civilian organisation.

Behind the "aunties with clappers" and well-groomed young women clutching lap-dogs that are the public face of the movement are squads of hoodlums, armed with batons, metal spikes and hand-guns who man the barricades and hunt down intruders.

"One morning I followed them as they dragged an alleged government spy off to an undisclosed location, kicking and punching him.

"I was unable to find out his fate. Some of these thugs are members of private armies run by retired generals."

[Undercover]

Finally, a bit of actual investigative reporting on PAD, courtesy of the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7762806.stm

Here's an excerpt:

"One of the many retired generals supporting its occupation at the airport observed that it [PAD] should be seen as a military, not a civilian organisation.

Behind the "aunties with clappers" and well-groomed young women clutching lap-dogs that are the public face of the movement are squads of hoodlums, armed with batons, metal spikes and hand-guns who man the barricades and hunt down intruders.

"One morning I followed them as they dragged an alleged government spy off to an undisclosed location, kicking and punching him.

"I was unable to find out his fate. Some of these thugs are members of private armies run by retired generals."

[LakeGeneve]

but it's also apparent that the PPP was/is factionalized, and while there were some looking for a reasonable compromise, there were others who appeared determined to solve this through a violent confrontation. that's the way some of them have always done business (politics).

people paint both the pad and the ppp/government with very wide brush strokes. it's not the whole picture. not everyone in the pad is the dangerous megalomaniacal charlatan that sondhi limthongkul is, just as everyone in or behind the ppp is not the vicious thieving selfish bastards that thaksin/samak/newin are.

Very well put Loburt and a good reminder of us all to try to understand the kaleidoscope of colours in the diverse political spectrum of the current ongoing play.

(When does Act III start?)

[sunsnow]

The BBC story is sad to read. No journalist in this country seems to have the power or interest or motivation to look into this PAD movement. This organization, military organization, is stronger than Thai police. The cries for police to investigate PAD and red-shirts related violence seems empt words as surely those who call investigation realise that any investigation has been blocked.

Sad sad thing. In away, I have hoped for long time already that the elephants would go to the sacred elephants graveyard and lets play out the next true big act and start from there on. All this movement before that is just ruining and messing with the inevitable.

[LakeGeneve]

[Thanks for saving me some time, in order to refute outright the crazy and delusional rant from Lake... [who BTW I just happen to disagree with and his way of expressing his opinion by creating sidebar distractions and misrepresentation or misreading other peoples views. Other times he makes many good points and can also be insightful.

When I read this last night my first thought was, "I thought he said he wasn't going to bother replying to my posts', as you did say a couple of pages ago. My next thought was Zeus and I are having a discussion and debating some points but neither of us are going to take anything personally. So why comment unless your going to add to the discussion, which you didn't seem to do?

Thereafter I thought, call me any name under the sun, I am not going to mind. Yes I can inadvertently misread other peoples views at times, I don't always understand english that well. I don't know what a sidebar distraction is but I assume it may be somehting like Sideshow Bob?

However, using the word misrepresentation suggests an element of deliberate intent. It something much more serious to accuse especially to a legal practioner. Please clearly state and highlight the alleged misrepresentation so that I can respond.

Other than that, enjoy your day in Dublin and maybe re-read the Giles article in the context of his clear ideological allegiances (did you see him on AJ the other day? If you do a websearch you'll find lots of socialist and marxist publications are great supporters of Thaksin, PPP et al).

Oh and pls don't forget to keep updating us in Thailand on the security situation! :wink:

[Loburt]

Finally, a bit of actual investigative reporting on PAD, courtesy of the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7762806.stm

Here's an excerpt:

"One of the many retired generals supporting its occupation at the airport observed that it [PAD] should be seen as a military, not a civilian organisation.

Behind the "aunties with clappers" and well-groomed young women clutching lap-dogs that are the public face of the movement are squads of hoodlums, armed with batons, metal spikes and hand-guns who man the barricades and hunt down intruders.

"One morning I followed them as they dragged an alleged government spy off to an undisclosed location, kicking and punching him.

"I was unable to find out his fate. Some of these thugs are members of private armies run by retired generals."

too bad the beeb didn't do any "investigative reporting" on who was firing rocket propelled grenades night after night at the protesters, killing some and maiming many others.

is it possible the thugs who were doing that were part of a private army run by a certain retired police general who said he would attack the pad, or the active army general who said they would die from bombs every night?

but of course, you don't care if people die if you don't agree with their views now, do you?

[sunsnow]

Yes, good question. One of the mysterious surroundting PAD and forces that have attacked them. Who are they. Both sides have had some weird equipment, where do they come from. PAD is supported by lot of military guys, I guess maybe someone in military might be opposing them...PAD generals were wanting anyone to come and kill them, spilling blood is really the most effective way to get attention they were thinking. But...Who knows, no one. Because no one does any investigation. But you don't care Loburt, because PAD did not do anything to you, didn't they. You only dislike those people who do something personal against you, dont you.

Little Cookie here, she is one of those affected by the protests. Her daddy was killed in an attack by someone who wanted to terrorize PAD. She as a good girl now wants Samak to die. She is good PAD member. Only 10 years old and so nicely following the militia already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBJJCMFzFjw

[LakeGeneve]

but of course, you don't care if people die if you don't agree with their views now, do you?

On on that front I should correct some numbers I posted yesterday based on this Nation article. Regardless of your political disposition, it is worth spending a moment to reflect on the fact that some have lost their lives and many (PAD, DAAD, police) have sustained serious injury. (Note the exclusion of upcountry - Ubon etc- figures).

How many people have been charged with offences relating to these injuries and deaths? Mmmm...

Protest casualties tallied at eigth deaths and 737 injured By The Nation 04/12/08

From May 25 to December 2, eight people were killed and 737 injured in violent incidents relating to anti-government protests by the People's Alliance for Democracy and counter rallies by the pro-government crowds. The casualties happened in Bangkok and surrounding areas as compiled by the Erawan emergency medical service.

The upcountry clashes between yellow shirt protesters and red shirt crowds have yet to be tallied. In one incident, PAD supporter Settha Jiamkitwattana, 60, was shot dead in Chiang Mai. The eight victims killed include seven killed in Bangkok and Settha in Chiang Mai.

Angkhana Radabpanyawut, 27, killed by explosive impact during the October 7 violent crackdown that police shot tear gas into the PAD-led crowds.

Police officer Methee Chartmontri died in an explosion from a car parked near Chart Thai Party headquarters on October 7.

Jenkit Kladsanorn, 48, killed in a grenade attack against therally site inside Government House on November 20.

Yuthapong Samerpak, 29, died in an explosion while performing his duty as aguard at the rally site near Mitsakawan Intersection on November 22.

Kamolwan Muennoo, 27, died in a bomb attack while joining the PAD-led rally inside Government House on November 30.

Ronachai Chaisri, 29, killed in a grenade attack against the PAD-led rally site at Don Mueang on December 2.

Narongsak Kobthaisong, 55, shot dead while joining the pro-government crowds to clash with PAD-led protesters at Makhawan Rangsan Bridge on September 2.

[biachung]

Just so you know, The Nz airforce is sending there ancient Hercules flying machine to pick up a couple of stranded kiwis stuck in bkk, I don't think they mind though, as kiwis are know for their love of extreme sports:P

[Hobbes]

Just so you know, The Nz airforce is sending there ancient Hercules flying machine to pick up a couple of stranded kiwis stuck in bkk, I don't think they mind though, as kiwis are know for their love of extreme sports:P

Why? Do they get strapped to the outside of the plane with bungee straps on the way back?

:wink:

[biachung]

Just so you know, The Nz airforce is sending there ancient Hercules flying machine to pick up a couple of stranded kiwis stuck in bkk, I don't think they mind though, as kiwis are know for their love of extreme sports:P

Why? Do they get strapped to the outside of the plane with bungee straps on the way back?

:wink:

No, instead they get strapped on the inside holding on for dear life with white fists praying that the old girl makes it back in one piece, they'll probably stop over in KL for repairs

[allseasonsman]

Giles Ji Ungpakorn is an associate professor at the Faculty of Political Science, Chulalongkorn University in Bangkok. He regularly comments on Thai affairs

He's also an avowed Marxist.

You say that ?he is an avowed Marxist?

Ok well I agree that if this is actually true then there is some use/merit in knowing this,and as I don't know otherwise I will trust you say this with some genuine knowledge.

In any event, while it is interesting to have such additional information [however narrow and selective it might be] so that we might consider those views as being views seen through that prism. We need not dismiss such informative and insightful articles and expressed views so easily as you seem inclined to do.

As a matter of fact I am an avowed anti Marxist, yet I agree with every word in the article! For as has already been pointed out we should judge the article on it's content and not what you or I might imagine are the motives of the person who wrote the article.

Whereas you come along and react to his detailed and very informed article by giving us a dismissive one liner.- and I don't mean that as a critical comment as such, because yes this is only TF and we are very constrained by having other interests and limited time etc etc.

What I would have been more tuned into as regards information about the writer was the fact that is ?an associate professor at the Faculty of Political Science, Chulalongkorn University in Bangkok? with special emphasis on the ? Faculty of Political Science? part.

Not because this means he must be right by virtue of that- no not at all, there is plenty of scope to disagree with all manner of academics, but rather it seems to me that this is an area in which this man would have great expertise and knowledge [again that doesn't mean he is always right either] so his views as expressed should be taken on the merits of the arguments/points made. As it happens I agree very much with what he wrote and the key points and emphasis he placed on certain key issues.

As for somebody suggesting that I not post such long articles? Or worse still that I post my own comments? Well I have made more than enough of my own comments so I think TF could do nicely with less from me. The detailed articles I posted save me having to type and that is always a blessing as my typing skills have already shown themselves to be very bad indeed.

[Undercover]

too bad the beeb didn't do any "investigative reporting" on who was firing rocket propelled grenades night after night at the protesters, killing some and maiming many others.

Yeah, the BBC is notoriously unreliable. Maybe the author is a "marxist."

The article is about how a small group of lightly armed people could takeover an international airport. That's the topic.

[LakeGeneve]

A very comprehensive statement from Amnesty Int and Human Rights Watch has been released and if well worth a read. Some excerpts;

?While the end of the protests and related violence is welcome, violence may resume if political groups oppose the next government,? said Brad Adams, Asia director of Human Rights Watch. ?Now is the time for protest leaders and the government to make public commitments to peaceful protest and lawful police action. It is also time for accountability. Many people have died and been injured in recent months, and this cannot simply be forgotten.?

?Members of the PAD, pro-government groups, and government officials responsible for violence and other human rights abuses should be held legally accountable,? said Sam Zarifi, Asia-Pacific director at Amnesty International. ?The legacy of the Thaksin era and then military rule has been severe weakening of the rule of law and accountability. The present volatile situation demands commitment from all sides to strengthen respect for human rights and end impunity.?

?The PAD has been trying for months to provoke a violent police response to its protests in the express hope of triggering a military coup d?etat and bringing down this government,? said Zarifi. ?The PAD should understand that when it uses force, including firearms, to endanger lives not only of law enforcement officers but also of ordinary citizens, it cannot claim to be a peaceful movement.?

?Pro-government forces have carried out violence with impunity against protesters in recent months,? said Zarifi. ?The Thai legal system has to hold these criminals accountable or the cycle of violence is likely to continue.?

?The police cannot take sides in fights between armed groups,? said Adams. ?They have a duty to intervene impartially when violence occurs and faithfully uphold the law.?

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/12/03/thailand-protest-groups-and-government-should-reject-political-violence

[zeusbheld]

i find it encouraging that the army and police appear to have endorsed neither PPP nor PAD, but i'm not impressed overall. so unimpressed, i'll probably be leaving within the year.

well thailand's really f**ked then !!!!

if by f**ked you mean "incredibly lucky" then yeah.

[Dr_Mike]

I'm a little scared to post on this Airport forum, still washing off the yellow stuff...

The most worrisome of all things, to me, is the chance that somebody, someday, somewhere might actually write a single news article about Thailand that is 90% correct, 85% honest or even 80% factual.

I've been reading these "news web sites" and not one of them tells the same story.

[zeusbheld]

the apparent ease with which the airport is being gotten back up and running, and even the apparent lack of raiding of the wide open duty-free shops.

Interesting notition isn't it? Many have called the PAD 'terrorists' with 'no respect for the law at all', yet there appears to be little or no criminal damage to airport facilities and reportedly none of the duty free was raided (wait ofr the stocktake). Seems fairly strange that a crowd of 20K would not have a few pilffering the stock. Strange that 'terrorists' with no respect for the law somehow respect expensive property at the airport. It suggests some discipline and reasoning involved in the calculus of actions by the group.

That is not to say that PAD actions didn't break many laws just that those breaches seemed deliberate in the context of events and save for the few and idiotic incidents of some thuggish guards.

discipline merely suggests fanaticism.

sorry but the law(s) they broke were doozies; i don't give a sideways **** if they laid siege to the airport politely, it's still terrorism (of course that would require one to read Thai law as if it meant something).

i am impressed with the efficiency and discipline but it's sorta like the coup: even if it was necessary, polite, and involved no loss of life and limb, it was still a coup.

I for one would have gone straight for the duty free as I dislike King DF monopoly!

i would have gone straight to the DF for purely selfish reasons; my anguish at being stuck in an airport several days and all.

The timing of the Con Crts decision was perhaps premature but if the judgement is sound then the Rule of Law prevails in finding a resolution to this round.

NO. wrong answer. IF there are no prosecutions from the seizure of the airport, then no matter how impeccable the decision is, it is selective.

"rule of law" isn't allowed to play favorites; it ceases to be rule of law. it makes a big, bold statement that you can do whatever you want to get your way, no matter what laws you break, or who you screw (in this case, their own economy).

any kind of democratic process is well past out the window. however, rule of law can be restored if there is a wave of prosecutions of PAD people for the airport seizure (and also the red clapper c-nuts should bite hte dust for the acts of violence, obviously). Sonthi L should be prosecuted as well otherwise, the law in Thailand is so selective that its only value (aside from allowing coups without body counts) is comedy value (in a tragic sorta way).

But what makes you think that people are now immune from criminal or civil liability?

so far i have seen nothing. if there are a mass of PAD arrests and prosecutions i'll be impressed, but i'm not holding my breath for this to happen, either.

How many times are people arrested and charge during the commission of an offence? In the minority I would suggest. There is nothing stopping police pursuing, or other parties lodging, criminal complaints against the PAD leadership or individuals alleged to have engaged in any type unlawful behaviour.

while that is true, it is somewhat misleading. generally the reason most criminals aren't arrested on the spot is that typically when a crime is committed there aren't cops standing around watching. maybe they were outnumbered, etc etc and maybe they didn't take names etc etc but some (Sonthi L for example) are pretty easy to identify, what with their frequent press releases and all.

The notion that the PAD or members of the PAD are somehow immune from criminal charges relating to any events in the last 6 months is as repugnant as the notion that people engaging in civil disobedience of any sort should be subjected to violent attacks involving military weaponary which results in deaths and serious injury. Even convicted murderers are entitled to protection by the law.

that is true, although had the government used the army or the police against them to *remove* them, *that* would be within the law. by law, it is a terrorist act. by THAI law (assuming the translation is good and it is worth even slightly more than the paper its' printed on). generally it is acceptable in law enforcement circles to use violence to stop a major breach of the law, such as a paramilitary seizure of an international airport.

obviously, the army and police were sensible in choosing not to go in and bust heads especially considering the impending court case, and *someone* obviously negotiated behind the scenes, and under the circumstances that was smart. it minimized loss of life and limb and damage to the airport.

but had the police gone in and forcibly removed them, and had it turned bloody, i seriously doubt it would provoke a flurry of condemnations from western nations. pretty much any western nation would never have let it get past 24 hours, regardless of how polite the airport invaders were.

But I will say that in the hierarchy of the criminal justice system there is usually a priority of offences to the person (life and bodily integrity) over offences such seizing public property and trespass. (Granted that in this place life is cheap esp. if you threaten the rich and their assests). But few seem to be calling for police action in relation to acts which have killed 6/7 and injured over 150 people.

seizing an international airport is not "trespass" in most countries it is considered an act of violent revolution, treason terrorism or all of the above, even if no shots are fired.

I previously made the point in the Trouble in Thailand thread after Oct 7, that anyone (PAD, DAAD, police, others) engaging in violent assaults against other persons should be subjected to the criminal justice system as a matter of priority.

agree.

Yet has anyone been arrested and charged with any offence? What about the previous incident in late Sept. where the DAAD thugs went to the PAD and one DAAD man died? Even the stupid idiot who drove his vehicle at police on Oct 7 has not been charged as of last week. Have the 3 criminal investigations into Oct 7 events been concluded? What about Ubon incident 6 months ago? (War against drugs, Tak Bai etc, etc)> We all know that the criminal justice system here is very weak and why many cases are not pursued.

well that sure makes the case for rule of law prevailing in Thailand, doesn't it.

[zeusbheld]

am i the only one who thinks that the airports' rapid reopening may indicate some sort of coordination between PAD and AOT?

this doesn't imply any sort of conspiracy any more than the army and police's lack of intervention--just that AOT and PAD were in communication and in a rare flash of good sense PAD's leaders knew enough to do as little as possible to damage the airport or its operations.

any thoughts?

i think that is very likely. you have to remember that the PAD was also in communication with the PPP government and were negotiating with deputy pm Chavalit Yongchaiyudh, and Chamlong was saying they would leave government house soon, until police began arresting PAD leaders. that was back in september.

they were still in communication until October 7, when the riot police ended up killing and maiming protesters outside parliament with a completely inept operation, and that's the most positive way to look at that operation.

but it's also apparent that the PPP was/is factionalized, and while there were some looking for a reasonable compromise, there were others who appeared determined to solve this through a violent confrontation. that's the way some of them have always done business (politics).

people paint both the pad and the ppp/government with very wide brush strokes. it's not the whole picture. not everyone in the pad is the dangerous megalomaniacal charlatan that sondhi limthongkul is, just as everyone in or behind the ppp is not the vicious thieving selfish bastards that thaksin/samak/newin are.

a good, succinct breakdown. it does seem that the vast majority of the 'real action' in Thai politics is backroom negotiations. it also seems like there are some politicos here who aren't nucking futs--just the loud ones like Sondhi and toxin.

[zeusbheld]

allseasonsman: please, do not keep posting whole articles here and on journals. It is tiring and takes a lot of space. How about quoting some interesting, best parts of your liking, adding your own comments and then linking to the original source. Oh and you never provide any links. That is not fun either.

what he said.

al you have to do to make a link is

[ u r l = http://your_article_here.com ] do this [ / u r l ]

obviously, you'll have to put your own links and words in, and take out the extra spaces, but (hopefully) you get the idea.