Santika New Year Party Tragedy

[zeusbheld]

(tourism is likely finished for the foreseeable future)

Thailand's been f*cking up like this for years, tourism takes a little knock but nothing life threatening.

Saying its 'finished' is a bit of an over reaction.

If I said it's finished you'd be right. I said it's likely finished for the foreseeable future. I'm only going on what I've read....projected 7 million visitors for '09 instead of the usual 16 or so million.

on this i agree.

... In case you missed it, they've once again changed the visa requirements with the supposed stated goal of REDUCING the visa run freaks and the like. .

except that the rule changes actually HELP visa run freaks and the like. the 90 days on visa stamps rule has been eliminated.

[Loburt]

(tourism is likely finished for the foreseeable future)

Thailand's been f*cking up like this for years, tourism takes a little knock but nothing life threatening.

Saying its 'finished' is a bit of an over reaction.

If I said it's finished you'd be right. I said it's likely finished for the foreseeable future. I'm only going on what I've read....projected 7 million visitors for '09 instead of the usual 16 or so million.

on this i agree.

Then you haven't been reading lately. The 7 million lost visitors projection was from a minister in the former government who had every interest in making things seem as bad as possible in order to blame the protesters.

On the optimistic end of the spectrum the TAT is projecting 5% GROWTH in tourist arrivals for 2009, which is less than they were originally expecting. Others are predicting arrivals will be about the same as they were in 2006 or 2007. In other words, a modest but significant decline. If political violence erupts again, it could be worse.

Tourism is going to suffer for a bit - less from the airport closures than from the global recession triggered by greedy, selfish, unethical bastards in the financial industry like mortgage BROKERS, derivatives BROKERS, hedge fund BROKERS, etc. whose stupidity and misdeeds have left just about all of us a lot BROKER than before.

The only thing that's finished is your credibility, vBROKER. Oh wait, you never had that in the first place.

[eagle]

I don't see the fire hurting tourism at all but so sad for the families of all who were hurt and died....

[vbroker]

(tourism is likely finished for the foreseeable future)

Thailand's been f*cking up like this for years, tourism takes a little knock but nothing life threatening.

Saying its 'finished' is a bit of an over reaction.

If I said it's finished you'd be right. I said it's likely finished for the foreseeable future. I'm only going on what I've read....projected 7 million visitors for '09 instead of the usual 16 or so million.

on this i agree.

Then you haven't been reading lately. The 7 million lost visitors projection was from a minister in the former government who had every interest in making things seem as bad as possible in order to blame the protesters.

On the optimistic end of the spectrum the TAT is projecting 5% GROWTH in tourist arrivals for 2009, which is less than they were originally expecting. Others are predicting arrivals will be about the same as they were in 2006 or 2007. In other words, a modest but significant decline. If political violence erupts again, it could be worse.

Tourism is going to suffer for a bit - less from the airport closures than from the global recession triggered by greedy, selfish, unethical bastards in the financial industry like mortgage BROKERS, derivatives BROKERS, hedge fund BROKERS, etc. whose stupidity and misdeeds have left just about all of us a lot BROKER than before.

The only thing that's finished is your credibility, vBROKER. Oh wait, you never had that in the first place.

Wait a second..........isn't that another liberal journalist's job I'm seeing disappearing right before my eyes? The New York Times, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, Newsweek, Time Magazine..........shall I go on? Funny how the Weekly Standard, National Review, Wall Street Journal, New York Post, et al don't seem to have the imploding readership, earnings and advertisers those others have. Baaaahhhh. There's no institutional bias. It's not one sided. Oh wait.....is that another Chapter 11 filing?

I posted earlier it's the idiotic posts that provide the comedy here. The blatant, dense stupidity that never ceases to amaze me. You get the clown award today. Thanks for the chuckle.

Don't hate the playa. Hate the game. Or in your case: hate everything.

Happy New Year.

[eagle]

The blatant, dense stupidity that never ceases to amaze me.

pot callin the kettle eh" :roll:

[beej]

Wait, its a ******* prediction, no one knows what the fucks going to happen to tourist numbers over the next 12 months, let alone say that a night club fire that will be forgotten about faster than I can fart in the Western Media will have much impact at all, I personally doubt it will.

What was the impact a year after the Tsunami?

[zeusbheld]

(tourism is likely finished for the foreseeable future)

Thailand's been f*cking up like this for years, tourism takes a little knock but nothing life threatening.

Saying its 'finished' is a bit of an over reaction.

If I said it's finished you'd be right. I said it's likely finished for the foreseeable future. I'm only going on what I've read....projected 7 million visitors for '09 instead of the usual 16 or so million.

on this i agree.

Then you haven't been reading lately.

true.

The 7 million lost visitors projection was from a minister in the former government who had every interest in making things seem as bad as possible in order to blame the protesters.

was he an apparatchik? i was under the impression that he was appointed by by the party but more of a bureaucrat.

On the optimistic end of the spectrum the TAT is projecting 5% GROWTH in tourist arrivals for 2009, which is less than they were originally expecting.

why would these be somehow more credible than the previous minister, especially with the global economy being what it is? they have, after all, every bit as much of a vested interest in spinning things, perhaps more. i'd be interested in knowing the TAT's track record as a forecaster, although admittedly not interested enough to look it up.

also, are TAT's projections new or is this the same projection they made in July? that's what they were saying *before* the economy tanked, was "only" five percent due to fuel prices.

In other words, a modest but significant decline. If political violence erupts again, it could be worse.

seems like expecting a 'modest' decline may not be taking into account the global economy as a whole still being well on its way toward the crapper, but at least it's a plausible scenario. 5 percent growth seems likely to turn out to be a pipe dream.

Tourism is going to suffer for a bit - less from the airport closures than from the global recession

definitely true, but i seriously doubt the airport closures, the worldwide perception that Thailand has a coup every few years, etc. are helping.

[zeusbheld]

Wait, its a f*cking prediction, no one knows what the fucks going to happen to tourist numbers over the next 12 months, let alone say that a night club fire that will be forgotten about faster than I can fart in the Western Media will have much impact at all, I personally doubt it will.

What was the impact a year after the Tsunami?

the night club fire is unlikely to affect tourism much, unless al Qaeda caused it.

political unrest, real or perceived, can torpedo tourism. i don't have the numbers anywhere i'm likely to find them, but Philippines and Indonesia's tourism numbers have been in the crapper for a while, and it seems more than reasonable to suggest that political unreast (those pesky state department warnings) may have something to do with it.

[Neo]

It may be a fine distinction but I don't think the closure of the airport itself will directly affect tourism to a significant degree, rather I think it's the civil war disaster action movie that the international media made from it that is bringing down the tourism.

Every time anything about the protesters was mentioned on the news in the West they showed that video clip of the yellow shirt thugs shooting at the motorcycle taxis while talking about city wide mayhem and ambiguously mentioning the airports. If anyone's to blame for the effect on tourism it's the international media.

Of course the global recession isn't helping much either.

[beej]

An AMAZING account from one Singaporean man and his girlfriend here, its upsetting but a good honest account.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Fire-Santika-Night-Club-t232984.html&st=700

[Loburt]

To Zeus:

the comment about not reading lately was directed at the previous poster, not you. ministers are almost never bureaucrats, they're politicians. he was a politician.

the TAT has actually been fairly reliable as a forecaster. the forecasts i referred to were made after the recession was apparent, and then after the airport closure.

certainly they have a vested interest in spinning things towards a more positive outlook. i did say it was at the "optimistic' end of the spectrum, and then gave an idea of what independent analysts were saying (a modest decline). forecasts should always be taken with a grain of salt.

[Dave40]

but Philippines and Indonesia's tourism numbers have been in the crapper for a while, and it seems more than reasonable

When the airport was closed a I asked a couple of well known travel agents (companies) (down here) about Thailand and they said not many cancellations so far and Thailand is one of the most sought after travel destinations, but as for Bali it is starting to get more people going there but it is still remembered for the bomb in 2002

[beej]

Sorry the link was wrong, its on page 28 at the bottom.......

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Fire-Santika-Night-Club-t232984.html&st=675

See link for photos.

1st person's account posted in another forum

I would like to share my experience with you guys when the night this incident happen. i was there and i am a Singaporean celebrating my new year countdown there.

Not long after the count down, the band started their normal route playing on the stage. my table was just about 4 meters away on the left hand side (just below the V.I.P area with table cushion) of the stage.

This is my girlfriend which i took a photo of her and right behind is the performing stage. The mention "White Coffin" suppose to be the Disc Jockey playing station had already been move to the right hand side of the stage.

we were given i call it "fire sprinkle" before the countdown began and this is not the cause of fire. we enjoy while everybody in the club were waving it happily as the clock welcome the year 2009. It was an enjoyable moment and there is another pyrotechnics display outside the club. The pyrotechnics display were ignited on top of an old building opposite the club.

after the display finished outside the club, i and my gf enter back inside the club about 10 minutes later, misfortune incident happen. It was the house band when the incident happened. i am not sure who is the "smart guy" that plan this show because they tied a pyrotechnics infront the bass band. it was ignited when the singer jumped up. i was just 4meters away from the stage so i can see clearly that after ignition, the remain base of the pyrotechnics still on fire and in my mind i was wandering will it burn the stage? i lay my eyes on it and about 6-7 seconds later it died off. But less than 1 minutes, just above the roof of the stage, fire broke out fiercely. the singer and band started to run and people started moving towards the "only exist" as patronise/clubber known.

i hold my gf hand and walk in double pace towards the entrance. in my mind, i know that there should be enough time to get out if we happen to stay calm. but things were not as my predicted. the entrance being jammed and unmovable. with the smoke burning in fast, i detour a level down which is the toilet. upon entering the toilet, i can see people still cleaning their hands and washing their face unknowing what is happening outside? i can see a big size man not knowing his nationality looking surprise because my gf is with me when i enter the gent. at the end of the toilet, there is a big glass door which i taught there might be another entrance out but upon reaching, it was just another dead end.

i think to myself at this time that i shall not died here as it just the begining of the year. while i was thinking way to get out, the whole place blacked out. about 3-5minutes later, i say to myself that i should make a 2nd attempt out thinking the entrance should be cleared and without much consider i grap my gf hand and headed upwards toward the entrance again.

before climbing up the stair, i can see 2 ladies holding hands togather trying to make their way up but fell off trumbling down a small flight of stairs. another lady was seen sqauting at the stair crying and i make my way up to 1level. i can see many people were lying on the ground and the bodies were stacked up about 3 lying human height. it was a really impossible task to go thru as they are victims of a stampede. the atmostphere is smoking up and temperature rising so i pull my gf hand not letting go of her headed back to the toilet. she also fell because the visibility is very low and there are still people trying to get out. (the toilet and entrance is just a flight of stairs up and about 8meters distance to get outside)

the atmostphere inside the toilet is less smokey than outside so i took of my shirt and make it wet. we sitted on the floor just to lay low started putting water on our bodies and cover the wet shirt on our faces. there is a security/bouncer at that time staying togather with us in the toilet. he started to tell everybody in the toilet to stay calm as we will be safe here. there were about 20-30 persons stranded inside the gents not sure any inside the ladies.

the fire still burning on top of us and you can hear things falling down and i am worried that the roof of the toilet might not take it. everybody stay very quiet and observe the surrounding, i can see bright light outside and the only thing i can do now was chanting "Namo tassa".

about 20-30minutes later, i can felt a stream of warm water flowing down into the toilet on my buttock area and immediately know that the fire department had arrived. this told me i am only 40% safe and continue to sit quietly and wait.

about 10-15minutes later, 2 firemen came inside wearing breathing gear and i know that the fire already being control/extinguish. i grap my gf hand and with the advice of the fireman proceed out with caution climbing up the stair.

the first sence that i saw was a woman leg; body face down all charcoal and a man laying face up, both hand stiff pointing up. this man should be the one that i saw when i enter the gents while escaping because of his big size. further up were the stack of stampede bodies about 3 lying human body height at the entrance. we were lead out towards a wall that has been knock down on the other side.

there were 8 of us in this group, i'm the only Singaporean & my friends are all Thai. 2 of them manage to escape out when the fire started. 6 of us including me hided inside the toilet. 1 of the lady in my group was too shock had been sent to hospital for some light treatment. My GF has a wound on her left feet when she stepped on a burning debris. All of us were lucky to be alive.

i cried in my heart when i saw all the bodies lying at the entrance and the effort all Thai's civil servants had put in especially the Wat Hualumpong (Sam Yam) Medical Group. I went to Sam Yam today to do another donation and saw them pining up pictures of decease bodies from Santika which had been burnt to charcoal.

i went back to Santika yesterday night to lay flower and light candles for those decease. May they Rest In Peace. I Observed the building and conclude if there isn't a lower level toilet at that time, we will be in the list because everything on ground were burnt.

i post this because i happen to notice that a forum member friend brother was among the dead which i felt the family should know what had happened.

this is a Siam Amulet forum, should be wandering what i am wearing? It a 20baht tamboon Somjed with a sleep Buddha behind. This Temple is not far from LP Pae Temple. This Temple house a very huge sleeping buddha which i am also born at that day.

(Above article is my personel experience encounter just to share and hope others to know my personel situation. Sorry that i will not reply to any post)

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[Loburt]

I have to wonder whether his conclusion that the fire was started by fireworks raining down on the roof from another building is accurate.

It contradicts other eyewitness accounts, and it's the only version that has it this way.

[LakeGeneve]

The "Thai Way..."

Yes, I am the foreign staff boss of an infant school with hundreds of kids. I raised the issue of fire safety with the Thai Vice-director when I took the position. The response: it's bad luck to talk about it and it hasn't happened yet.

Utterly irresponsible crap, and if I was in Australia I would take action to have persons responsible made accountable. Here, you can do nothing, only get in trouble for making some incompetant fool lose face.

It's a hard one is it not when such ingrained inertia is at play in dealing with issues ina responsible manner. Then when something does happen no one takes responsibility.

As for the stupid fighting going on in this thread about sandals, politics and name calling, can I ask you guys take it somewhere else?

Totally agree with you on this mate.

Seems to be rather pointless to be having petty arguements about footwear & tourist numbers on this thread in the context of what happened AND the fact that the death list is growing, 3 yesterday, and there is still about 25 people in ICU.

There is a time and place for everything. At least an arguement about appropriate safety standards in entertainment venues would seem more respectful.

Send out your thoughts and prays to all in ICU and the families.

[LakeGeneve]

A couple of interesting letters to the ed in The Nation today-

Published on January 4, 2009 The Nation letters to the editor

Some basic British|safety regulations

It might be useful for your readers to have some idea what "acknowledged" standards are in the UK for fire safety in public places so as they may judge for them selves if a venue they visit might be unsafe. There are three accepted considerations in determining the number of people a building can safely accommodate: construction of the building, total floor area and number and width of exits. The maximum number of people that can be safely allowed in a building is calculated using these three factors. Each can be a critical limiting factor. Firstly, the acceptable evacuation time for a building varies from 3 to 2 minutes. A building of traditional construction, ie non-combustible walls with combustible floors/ceilings is 2.5 minutes. This means that once an emergency is called everybody can safely leave the building within 2.5 minutes.

Secondly, the total usable floor space; toilets, corridors, stairways, do not count as usable space. As a rough guide in most entertainment venues the amount of space allowed per person ranges from 0.3 to 0.5 of a metre depending on the amount of seating. Thirdly, the number of and width of exits. Exits are calculated on unit widths of 525mm, which is the average width of a person and the rate at which people move through doorways. Therefore a standard door of 750mm only counts as 1 unit width, even though it exceeds the 525mm standard. This is because only 1 person can go through a single doorway at any one time. It has been proved that people will move through a 525mm space at the rate of 40 persons per minute. If a building needs to be evacuated within 2 minutes 30 seconds it can be seen that if 40 persons per minute through a 525mm space is multiplied by 2.5 (acceptable time in minutes to evacuate) = 100 persons that can exit a building through a 525mm space, within an acceptable period (2.5 minutes).Whilst the final calculations are obviously more complex it is a good rule of thumb to consider exits as the limiting factor in most cases, and they are easily observable. If doors are standard width then the sums are quite easy: one door one hundred people. Though in no way precise, perhaps this simple rule might allow patrons who visit establishments whose fire safety concerns them to vote with their feet.

FRED MORRICE, BANGKOK

Since the tragedy of the fire at Santika, I have conducted a small investigation on the safety of other bars in popular areas including the well known backpacking district of Khaosan Road in Bangkok. I would like you to further read my findings on ThaiVisa.com ( http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Nightclubs-Risk-t233204.html ). I also spoke live to the BBC and Sky News in the United Kingdom on the night of the fire with a news report about what was happening at Santika in Ekkamai.I would like you to either investigate or take the time to work with me to implement safety procedures and to enforce authorities to either shut down, or to invest in safety regulations to clubs, pubs and bars alike.

Andrew Jones, Bangkok

[Loburt]

Well, as someone who was involved in the exchange about tourist numbers, it was basically a response to a wanker who was putting this country down on every level possible and pronouncing that this incident means tourism is "finished" in this country.

It's not, and this incident isn't going to kill it.

And as appalling as the fire and safety standards are in this country, people should also bear in mind that similar lax standards existed in our own countries for a long time - and change came slowly despite some horrific tragedies.

In the US we all learn about the Triangle Shirt Factory fire in the early 1900s, in which scores of young immigrant women were either burned to death or jumped to their deaths to avoid the flames, because they had been locked in the loft/factory by their boss who didn't want them slacking off.

It's regarded as a turning point as far as fire safety was concerned, and it was. But I was also surprised to learn recently that it took as long as 25 years for all the relevant laws to actually get passed and enforced.

Sadly, I think Thailand is moving even more slowly. We've already had terrible tragedies here - the Kader Toy Factory fire in 1993, and the hotel fire in Pattaya in 1997, in both cases exits were locked by greedy owners.

But not a lot has changed.

I think a big part of bringing about change - aside from the will to enforce the codes and laws - will be real financial liability imposed by courts. If people can get sued for millions of dollars, and have to pay it, for their criminal negligence, they are less likely to be negligent.

And among those who should be able to be sued are government, like the Bangkok Metropolitan Authority. That will give them more incentive to enforce the laws and codes.

Of course, a lot of people complain about the court system in the US and frivolous lawsuits. But, in general, it certainly seems to have worked in terms of getting people to adhere to safety standards.

[grezzzy_greer]

A Thai newspaper today had a horrific photograph of some of the bodies while they were still inside the building. Pretty much exactly how one would imagine it to be... I think it's the single most horrifying image I've seen in this life. Unbelievably tragic.

Graphic images of death, the moment of death, or the aftermath of fatal accidents and shootings are absolutely inappropriate and should not be printed in the media or broadcast in any visual media. How would these "people" feel if it turned out to be a photograph of one of their loved ones? In many countries now the media have actually woken up to the horror and pain caused to the relatives of those in the images, and self-censor such material. This is not newsworthy, it is not informative - it is hurtful sensationalism - nothing more nor less. ANY news paper that does this permanently loses me as a reader - after one such occurrence, I have now absolutely banned anyone in my family from ever bringing any copy of Thai Rath into my home.

[PJack]

A Thai newspaper today had a horrific photograph of some of the bodies while they were still inside the building. Pretty much exactly how one would imagine it to be... I think it's the single most horrifying image I've seen in this life. Unbelievably tragic.

Graphic images of death, the moment of death, or the aftermath of fatal accidents and shootings are absolutely inappropriate and should not be printed in the media or broadcast in any visual media. How would these "people" feel if it turned out to be a photograph of one of their loved ones? In many countries now the media have actually woken up to the horror and pain caused to the relatives of those in the images, and self-censor such material. This is not newsworthy, it is not informative - it is hurtful sensationalism - nothing more nor less. ANY news paper that does this permanently loses me as a reader - after one such occurrence, I have now absolutely banned anyone in my family from ever bringing any copy of Thai Rath into my home.

yeah but......

Thai people dig it

[grezzzy_greer]

A Thai newspaper today had a horrific photograph of some of the bodies while they were still inside the building. Pretty much exactly how one would imagine it to be... I think it's the single most horrifying image I've seen in this life. Unbelievably tragic.

Graphic images of death, the moment of death, or the aftermath of fatal accidents and shootings are absolutely inappropriate and should not be printed in the media or broadcast in any visual media. How would these "people" feel if it turned out to be a photograph of one of their loved ones? In many countries now the media have actually woken up to the horror and pain caused to the relatives of those in the images, and self-censor such material. This is not newsworthy, it is not informative - it is hurtful sensationalism - nothing more nor less. ANY news paper that does this permanently loses me as a reader - after one such occurrence, I have now absolutely banned anyone in my family from ever bringing any copy of Thai Rath into my home.

yeah but......

Thai people dig it

Disgusting

[babyoiy]

Today the main shareholder, Sia Khaow (I dont remember full name) of Santika had a meeting with police already.

From the news, he was there and was helping people at the scene. Since thing happened he didn't go anywhere but was in hospital as he breath in lots of smoke and was unconcious, when he woke up again he was informed that many people get killed from that accident and he's really sorry for what had happened.

He's still kind of shocked with what happened and all the time he was almost cry but managed to fight back the tears a few times before he ran from the group of reporters. He said anything he could do, he will do to help the victims family and those injured.

Just saw in the news this evening, believe it should be all over in any website soon.

[zeusbheld]

I have to wonder whether his conclusion that the fire was started by fireworks raining down on the roof from another building is accurate.

It contradicts other eyewitness accounts, and it's the only version that has it this way.

makes me wonder what the (outside) of the roof was made of. it'd be much, much MUCH easier to catch the soundproofing on fire, even with a cigarette or an electrical short, than burn through most types of roof.

[Loburt]

I was thinking the same thing.

[Loburt]

Today the main shareholder, Sia Khaow (I dont remember full name) of Santika had a meeting with police already.

From the news, he was there and was helping people at the scene. Since thing happened he didn't go anywhere but was in hospital as he breath in lots of smoke and was unconcious, when he woke up again he was informed that many people get killed from that accident and he's really sorry for what had happened.

He's still kind of shocked with what happened and all the time he was almost cry but managed to fight back the tears a few times before he ran from the group of reporters. He said anything he could do, he will do to help the victims family and those injured.

Just saw in the news this evening, believe it should be all over in any website soon.

Well, i hope he's sincere, not like that guy whose son ran over the people at the bus stop who said he would help, but don't ask for too much.

I have a friend who was burned badly, and she doesn't think she can afford all the treatment the doctors say she is going to need to not end up with disfigured skin.

[MisterMatlock]

Today the main shareholder, Sia Khaow (I dont remember full name) of Santika had a meeting with police already.

From the news, he was there and was helping people at the scene. Since thing happened he didn't go anywhere but was in hospital as he breath in lots of smoke and was unconcious, when he woke up again he was informed that many people get killed from that accident and he's really sorry for what had happened.

He's still kind of shocked with what happened and all the time he was almost cry but managed to fight back the tears a few times before he ran from the group of reporters. He said anything he could do, he will do to help the victims family and those injured.

Just saw in the news this evening, believe it should be all over in any website soon.

Well, i hope he's sincere, not like that guy whose son ran over the people at the bus stop who said he would help, but don't ask for too much.

I have a friend who was burned badly, and she doesn't think she can afford all the treatment the doctors say she is going to need to not end up with disfigured skin.

I've been in the position of a pair of chinese-thai pricks saying "Oh yeah, we'll help" after creaming me... Of course, as time went on, they quickly changed to "Oh... You're farang... We can't pay your bills." Point being, the owner is probably just waiting for the case to get out of the media and then he'll stonewall the whole lot (unless some of the families have some money and plan to take him through the ringer. I hope they do.)