House Passes Bill to Address Threat of Climate Change

[eagle]

@ good karma

I understand how my posts sounded like its just merely an opinion made up out of nothing. People who know me know that I dont make things up which I just over heard or read somewhere. When I hear or read about something I usually research the case to make my opinion. I reallize thats not the case on this internet forum. Point taken.

I post my opinion and get chewed on occasionally. Its good to know how you are perceived especially in an international forum You will be called on it in here and thats not a bad thing.

[GoodKarma]

@ good karma

I understand how my posts sounded like its just merely an opinion made up out of nothing. People who know me know that I dont make things up which I just over heard or read somewhere. When I hear or read about something I usually research the case to make my opinion. I reallize thats not the case on this internet forum. Point taken.

mustard its all good..

Im not trying to tell you how to post or write just saying..

just my observations...you might be misunderstood by some..not

understanding where you were coming from.sound bites can be

very effective...only if you know where they came from is all..

take it easy bro..

how does mustard and eggs taste is it good..do you like eat that on bread as a sandwhich or something<~~)joke

[Hobbes]

http://cei.org/cei_files/fm/active/0/DOC062509-004.pdf

http://cei.org/cei_files/fm/active/0/Endangerment%20Comments%206-23-09.pdf

ima gonna quote a shout roundup of the study but everyone please read it before you comment, also read the second link to see how EPA tried to supress the study

The report finds that EPA, by adopting the United Nations? 2007 ?Fourth Assessment? report, is relying on outdated research and is ignoring major new developments. Those developments include a continued decline in global temperatures, a new consensus that future hurricanes will not be more frequent or intense, and new findings that water vapor will moderate, rather than exacerbate, temperature.

New data also indicate that ocean cycles are probably the most important single factor in explaining temperature fluctuations, though solar cycles may play a role as well, and that reliable satellite data undercut the likelihood of endangerment from greenhouse gases. All of this demonstrates EPA should independently analyze the science, rather than just adopt the conclusions of outside organizations.

The EPA is but one organisation that so far has had reports suppressed and buried by the previous administration that funnily enough made the case for human caused climatic changes supporting the IPCC findings (as I have pointed out with links earlier here or in that 'hoax' thread). Really want to know the latest research and what it spells out for us then go to the IPCC but I doubt you'll like what you'll find.

As for that Carlin dude, Neo does make the points already. As soon as one reads 'sun activity' it becomes hogwash that has so many times been debunked it's not even funny anymore. :evil:

If you're also one of those claiming that any scientists predicting human induced climatic changes is a real and present danger, are nothing but a bunch of money-grabbing white coats living in lala-land and enjoying the ride on the gravy train, then I suggest you do really follow the money trail.

As I have posted in 'Paul the turds' journal about your friends from the CEI:

From SourceWatch.org:

"In a 2006 profile of CEI [Competitive Enterprise Institute] and other global warming skeptics, Washington Post reporter Joel Achenbach noted that "the most generous sponsors" of CEI's 2005 annual dinner were "the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, Exxon Mobil, the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, and Pfizer. Other contributors included General Motors, the American Petroleum Institute, the American Plastics Council, the Chlorine Chemistry Council and Arch Coal." [6]"

Says it all, I think.

[Mustardeggs]

Actually it doesn say it all, not all people with money have the same interests. There are clearly differences between ex general motors and al gore who coincedently owns a carbon trade company for example.

Also there is no way to tell that all those sponsors are really interested in the course of the CEI or the opposite, thats like saying a buisinessmen who meets with a senator rep with a suitcase full of money just does it to confirm his opinion and could not be trying to sway him.

Iam not claiming that the scientists " do " . It is foolish to believe that the scientists are independent researchers trying to find out the truth for our own good.

Do you remember how scientists got discredited who argumented for global warming when global warming wasnt mainstream?

The mainstream opinion and therefore the voice of scientists who are beeing heard is formed by politics and powerfull people and so are the public opinions of influental organisation like the UN EPA or CEI not by the actual scientists.

In my opinion

[Hobbes]

The CEI is a foundation / think tank that does lobby work for those that fund it. If amongst it's main contributors (and they do try hard to keep their funding sources out of the public domain) are organisations like Exxon Mobile, GM, the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers and the American Petroleum Institute then it should really not come as a surprise if this organisation (which no doubt will claim to act independently) claims to have 'proof' that human induced climatic change is just a hoax and there is a cover-up by the current liberal (in other words 'socialist') administration.

The EPA is a government body that represents federal government policies and, as I have pointed out, has been leaned on heavily by the previous administration when their reports pointed out that all that climate change malarkey spouted about by the IPCC was actually pretty much spot on.

Studies done by the EPA and other federal organisations like the USGS may contribute to the reports compiled by the IPCC.

The IPCC is a scientific intergovernmental UN body. Not funded by corporations, lobby groups and/or a single nation. Thousands of scientist from all over the world contribute with their research to the reports of the IPCC. It does not conduct any research on its own. It collects and analyses the data and research undertaken in the relevant fields and puts its findings in regularly updated reports which are peer-reviewed, transparent and consensus driven. No denying that global politics play a role in the wording of these reports and countries like the US in the past have made sure with a lot of arm-twisting that the reports are watered down. Hopefully that will change now.

So now, tell me again why I would give the time of day to some corporate-funded think tank instead of some international body full of people who may know nowt about stock markets and share value but know what they are talking about when it comes to geo-sciences? :roll:

[Mustardeggs]

Okay youre right about this.

The point i was trying to make is that there are enough people who profit from the carbon/climate change debate as there are people who dont.

It can very well be that all those people contributing didnt like the climate carbon debate but there are more then enough people who profit from it more then you might think so I dont think it an argument that nobody has interests in carbon caused global warming even though alot of powerfull people contributied against it, the same can be said for the contrary.

And you said, the EPA was before trying to supress information towards climate change. So you admit they act on a political agenda rather then objective science. Well now theyre trying the opposite so there was clearly a change of interest and even they have supressed contrary information in the past it doesnt mean that theyre still driving the same lane and as it shows in the link I posted they do not. They now are pro climate change and trying to supress anti climate change information.

@ good karma, I havent had much time this morning to reply to your whole post, so here a picture of mustardeggs aka " senfeier "

I can send the recipe to anyone who would like to try

[zeusbheld]

So are we getting closer to the sun because it's getting hotter... or is it a regular phenomenon that in the last 100 years the earth temperatures are rising rapidly?

Please do your research on human impact on this planet before you comment.

I would really like some one to produce the data supporting rapid rises in temperature over the last 100 years....and what exactly do you consider rapid?

fair enough, but i would like to see the data and links to genuine peer-reviewed scientific papers supporting *your* many conclusions. because without that, statements like

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) was created by the United Nations Environment Programme. Its reports have been demonstrated to be fundamentally flawed in scientific methodology,

should be pretty straightforward to substantiate, yet you haven't bothered. kinda implies i should be wearing a tinfoil hat while reading your more elaborate conspiracy theories, or watching amateurish half-mashup 'documentaries' on youtube to see the 'proof.'

[zeusbheld]

@ good karma

I understand how my posts sounded like its just merely an opinion made up out of nothing. People who know me know that I dont make things up which I just over heard or read somewhere. When I hear or read about something I usually research the case to make my opinion. I reallize thats not the case on this internet forum. Point taken.

well really if you'd just made your point rather than peppering it with histrionics about 'slavery' and comparisons to nazis it would have been a thousand percent less ineffective and offputting. do you really think *everyone* who reads the articles you mentioned but didn't actually link to would come away with the conclusion that we are being 'enslaved' and that the US government is reviving the hitler youth?

however dire the facts reported in whatever articles you encounter may seem to you, comparisons to Nazis and slavery really make you seem like the worst sort of bomb shelter chicken little conspiracy drama queen. this is not doing you any favors credibility-wise or likely to persuade anyone who isn't already living in a bomb shelter. more likely, it will provoke people to dismiss your opinions without giving them much consideration, just because the tone makes you look like a clown. the interwebs are full of conspiracy mongs touting all sorts of absurd notions ranging from evolution being a hoax to alien infiltration of mankind. do you really want to join that parade of idiots?

also, you claim to have done your homework. where is all this great research of yours supporting your allegations? you make some pretty strong allegations that, shall we say, diverge from mainstream opinion. the more you diverge from widely accepted positions, the more you inherit the burden of proof, that's just how debate works when done in an intellectually honest way. when do we get to the part where you back it up?

ps please forward me that mustard eggs recipe if you don't mind. i like mustard and i like eggs, so it's probably worth giving mustard eggs a try.

[Neo]

I would really like some one to produce the data supporting rapid rises in temperature over the last 100 years....and what exactly do you consider rapid?

Here ya go...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Instrumental_Temperature_Record.png

Russian climatologists believe recent weather changes around the globe are results of solar activity and not man-made emissions. Oleg Sorokhtin, a fellow of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences, calls the argument for man-made climate change "a drop in the bucket." His research shows that now the recent very active solar activity has entered an inactive phase. He advised people to "stock up on fur coats."

This is the number one myth.

"Direct measurements of solar output since 1978 show a steady rise and fall over the 11-year sunspot cycle, but no upwards or downward trend ." - New Scientist 16 May 2007.

The research that shows a correlation is based on flawed data.

Kenneth Tapping of Canada?s National Research Council, who oversees a giant radio telescope focused on the sun, is convinced we are in for a long period of severely cold weather if sunspot activity does not pick up soon.

He's looking at the wrong data. When you try to correlate satellite measurements of solar activity to terrestrial temperatures it actually goes the wrong way.

The last time the sun was this inactive, Earth suffered the Little Ice Age that lasted about five centuries and ended in 1850. Crops failed through killer frosts and drought. Famine, plague and war were widespread. Harbours froze, so did rivers, and trade ceased.

Not that old myth again. The jury is out as to why it cold at that time.

Their global War on Terror provided a cover or pretext to justify military control over the major oil reserves and oil transit passages of the world. From Iraq to Afghanistan to Kosovo, the US and NATO agenda was aimed at future control of the extraordinary economic powers emerging from Russia to China to India to Brazil and Venezuela and beyond. Through China?s effective diplomacy in Africa, many African countries are on the brink of slipping out from under the US or British control into Chinese or more independent status.

Yep. What's that got to do with the price of fish?

If John McCain becomes the next choice of the US power elites to be President, that will signal that that military and oil agenda will escalate, especially as the USA sinks into a severe economic depression in coming months.

So you just copy and pasted an outdated and very long rant? Dissapointing :roll:

Global warming is a farce...

Nothing you posted convinces me of that.

[Mustardeggs]

I used those words primarily to get attention because I think the points I make are important and dont want them dismissed or overread.

Slavery is real, in the sense that the bankers and elites trying to enslave you. They dont literally put you in chains and whip you but they send you to work 40 hours a week and make you pay taxes. They tell you what and what not to do. Wasnt is that you work about half a year only for the goverment, at least it was like that germany .

Which would be okay if the government would be doing their job as theyre supposed to you working for your interests but as it is they work for the interests of big offshore banks whatnot.

If you look at it like that calling it slavery has not much to do with beeing nuts. And the more taxes and laws they put on you the more progress we make in this process, now imagine with the carbon tax you pay even more taxes for your car and whatnot plus food will get incredibly expensive. That makes you even more dependend on them until you ultimately cannot survive without them.

Hitler was a man who used a weoponized youthbrigade domesticlly. It was called hitlerjugend. Now you have the youthcorps who are teenagers with weapons trained in combat planned to use domesticly. I think it makes some sense, its not neccesary to mention the hitlerjugend but I feel that alot of people dont realize the magnitude of this and think its something good.

If ones opinion is different from the mainstream i think it actually speaks for him considering that most people take their opinion from what is fed to them by the controllers. That person is actually smart enough to consider other resources besides the controlled propaganda machines. And seriously all people who do realize that the mainstream lies the most.

There really is no independent mainstream media resource. And honestly quite a bit of the " mainstream " people are brainwashed zombies who really have no clue and no opinion on their own because thats what they were conditioned to be. They just love everthing the government does.

Others have no time do research other media and sources or dont even know they exist. The mainstream opinion is not very well researched but fed by the controlled mainstream media outlets and oftne is the truth spun and twisted in a way that they already give you an oinion rather then presenting all the info objectively.

My time is pretty limited too but when I have time and look into some things for me most of the time it is pretty disturbing to see what is really happening and it becomes clear that I cannot believe a word I see on fox news or washington post. Even not all the things they tell is lies but you just cant tell what is and what is not.

p.s. here the first mustardeggs reccepie google spit out : http://www.inmamaskitchen.com/RECIPES/RECIPES/breakfast/eggs/yelmusteggs.html . I dont know hwo good it is but you should try. I recommend potatos as a side dish

[Hobbes]

http://cei.org/cei_files/fm/active/0/DOC062509-004.pdf

http://cei.org/cei_files/fm/active/0/Endangerment%20Comments%206-23-09.pdf

ima gonna quote a shout roundup of the study but everyone please read it before you comment, also read the second link to see how EPA tried to supress the study

The report finds that EPA, by adopting the United Nations? 2007 ?Fourth Assessment? report, is relying on outdated research and is ignoring major new developments. Those developments include a continued decline in global temperatures, a new consensus that future hurricanes will not be more frequent or intense, and new findings that water vapor will moderate, rather than exacerbate, temperature.

New data also indicate that ocean cycles are probably the most important single factor in explaining temperature fluctuations, though solar cycles may play a role as well, and that reliable satellite data undercut the likelihood of endangerment from greenhouse gases. All of this demonstrates EPA should independently analyze the science, rather than just adopt the conclusions of outside organizations.

Ok, here we go although it's probably not worth it.

Of course the EPA acts on a political agenda, it is after all a federal institution and where do they get the money from?! But why didn't those friendly corporate jack-boots from the CEI scream murder when the Bush administration blocked, suppressed and buried EPA reports that came to the same conclusions as the IPCC reports did? I guess their pay masters where happy about that kind of buried reports. :roll:

That chap form the EPA at the centre of this supposed 'controversy' is this Carlin guy. As Neo has pointed out already, anyone that comes with solar activity/ sun spots or some derivative to explain away human caused global climate change can't be taken all that seriously because this often cited myth by climate change sceptics has been debunked so many times and comprehensively he should have to hand back his degree for this failure.

Another long-debunked denier talking point is debunked again: Changes in the Sun are not causing global warming

or here: Debunking the Urban Legends of Climate Change

or here: Skeptical Science

Now I had a look at the first of the pdf files you linked too and it didn't take much to find the flaws without going through all 98 pages.

Firstly there are these comments about EPA relying on the 'findings of outside organisations like the IPCC and the CCSP' to paraphrase it. Well, if they are suggesting that the EPA with it's limited resources (and correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to darkly remember that their funding had suffered as a result of those naughty reports under Dubya) can 'out-research' the combined world science community then good luck to them. The IPCC is a UN body that compiles reports on the basis of research conducted in the relevant fields across the world. It doesn't conduct any research of its own. But it sure is less possible to manipulate the outcome of these reports if so many people are involved and they are not even all Americans. :roll:

The point regarding the IPCC reports at the date of publication to be outdated already by more current studies is a very valid point though.

Some of the other points of concerns listed deal (in no particular order) with apparently 'not-so-severe' melting of the Greenland ice sheet. Well, funny this because I just found these regarding this point (published 2009):

Melting Greenland Ice Sheets May Threaten Northeast United States, Canada

Greenland Ice Sheet Melting Faster Than Expected; Larger Contributor To Sea-level Rise Than Thought

Another point raised mentioned a study by Scafetta and West called "Phenomenological reconstructions of the solar signature in the

Northern Hemisphere surface temperature records since 1600" and how it shows that the IPCC reports have used faulty solar data. An interesting an valid study this maybe it doesn't invalidate the argument that solar activity cannot explain temperature rises since 1976. Here a small snippet from discussing this paper on climataudit.org:

"It's a very interesting paper and seems reasonable to me.

Your quote from the abstract is correct but speaks only of the total warming for the century. Since there is little argument regarding the effect of increased solar output through the first half of the century, it is more appropriate to look at the latter half of the century when considering AGW. For this time frame, the conclusions are not quite as exciting.

This quote is from the discussion section and represents the largest post-1950 solar influence discussed in the paper:

Thus the Sun could have contributed roughly [...] 50% of the global NH surface warming that occurred from 1900 to 2005. Since 1950 the Sun might have contributed ~0.05K (0.5/6 = 8% of the warming) using LEAN2000, or ~0.15K (1.5/6 = 25% of the warming) using WANG2005.

That is, Scaffeta and West attribute between 8% and 25% of post-1950 warming to solar influence. That seems reasonable to me. Furthermore, they come up with a time constant of 6 to 12 years, implying an equilibrium temperature response from the high-but-steady TSI since ~1950 by the mid-1970s.

Despite what you might hope, the warming since the mid-1970s is still not explained by TSI."

So far I fail to see quite where these supposedly leaked documents in possession of the CEI represent quite the 'bombshell' they so claim.

[Mustardeggs]

Well I havent really researched global warming and it might be really carbon dioxide caused. Though in my opinion I doubt it but I dont claim to be right.

The most important issue is though , real or not real that it gets exploited and this bill passed is about giving up ur liberties and about raising taxes under the pretext of global warimg. And this only 1 bill, there are so many right now, this bill for example is the biggest and most important since the patriot act but almost nobody talks about it.

At least we can discuss freely on this platform, thats a good thing.

[Stramash]

Well I havent really researched global warming and it might be really carbon dioxide caused. Though in my opinion I doubt it but I dont claim to be right.

The most important issue is though , real or not real that it gets exploited and this bill passed is about giving up ur liberties and about raising taxes under the pretext of global warimg. And this only 1 bill, there are so many right now, this bill for example is the biggest and most important since the patriot act but almost nobody talks about it.

At least we can discuss freely on this platform, thats a good thing.

back in the good old activist days, we developed a simple way of working out how many people were really on a demo. You would take the organiser's estimate (for example 80,000) and the police estimate (for example 40,000) add the two together, and the total divided by 2 usually gave a pretty accurate figure (so in this case 60,000)

I use this example as I feel it corresponds quite well to the global warming debate.

I refute the idea that the battle lines are between big industry and conservationists/environmentalists/liberal lefties.

Nowadays, green industry IS big business. Just do a google search for environmentally friendly products, low carbon products etc etc

As with everything, the crux of the matter in the front line comes down to cash. The iindustries/corporations that have adopted green ideas vs those who havent, and it is really no surprise that there are lies and exaggerations from both camps.

IMHO, there is no doubt that there are some worrying trends vis a vis climate change, global warming whatever.

And I also accept the view that many of the effects we see are part of a natural cycle. But I do believe that man is helping accelerate that process, perhaps to a point where the natural process cannot cope, especially when you look at effects on crucial organisms like phyto plankton where huge losses of this organism, beyond what may happen in a natural cycle, could have devastating future effects.

So, yes, some of the current proposals, bills, tax measures etc may be over reactions JUST NOW, but there is an old old saying; prevention is better than cure, and I think that applies here, especially when you consider the way China and India are seeing massive increases in CO2 output and pollution generally.

So, what we do now may seem at times excessively precautious, but what we are hopefully doing is beginning to slow any processes of climate change back to a pace that nature can cope with.

[Mustardeggs]

I approve your post.

Though I want to pick up your last paragraph.

I think this kind of bill is exactly what they need and want and what they will keep doing. Thats just how they roll. There will be no slowing down until the people stand up.

Its common practice to impose new laws and taxes and alongside reduce liberties and freedom and establish tyranny under the pretext of real or not so real threats.

And the iraq war clearly shows that if the government has no reasons to do soemthing they want which the public would accept they just make some up.

Again it might be real this time but again theyre totally exploiting it for their own agendas. Imposing taxes, federalizing private property ( important here is that america is practiclly run by private offshore banks ) . So yea I will say it again, be aware what your government does and what bills theyre passing.

[Stramash]

I approve your post.

Though I want to pick up your last paragraph.

I think this kind of bill is exactly what they need and want and what they will keep doing. Thats just how they roll. There will be no slowing down until the people stand up.

Its common practice to impose new laws and taxes and alongside reduce liberties and freedom and establish tyranny under the pretext of real or not so real threats.

And the iraq war clearly shows that if the government has no reasons to do soemthing they want which the public would accept they just make some up.

Again it might be real this time but again theyre totally exploiting it for their own agendas. Imposing taxes, federalizing private property ( important here is that america is practiclly run by private offshore banks ) . So yea I will say it again, be aware what your government does and what bills theyre passing.

I agree with most of that. Increased CCTV, reduced civil liberties, corporate ownership of what should be public services (careful you are sounding like a liberal here).

My point is that while many of the measures being brought in on both sides of the Atlantic certainly have the usual political slant of self serving, there are many benefits from some of them.

What I would like to see a lot more of is activism at community levels, taking responsibility for local issues such as recycling, use of green belt areas etc while at the same time putting pressure on the upper echelons of government for sensible and transparent debate and decisions on things like energy production and emission capping.

[zeusbheld]

I used those words primarily to get attention because I think the points I make are important and dont want them dismissed or overread.

point was, the main thing such histrionics will do is get your points dismissed and you dismissed as a loon.

Slavery is real, in the sense that the bankers and elites trying to enslave you. They dont literally put you in chains and whip you but they send you to work 40 hours a week and make you pay taxes. They tell you what and what not to do. Wasnt is that you work about half a year only for the goverment, at least it was like that germany .

that's a bit of an overblown comparison, don't you think? i mean considering that business of whips and chains existed for certain, and quite likely still exists in some places. word choice just makes you look whiny.

Which would be okay if the government would be doing their job as theyre supposed to you working for your interests but as it is they work for the interests of big offshore banks whatnot.

If you look at it like that calling it slavery has not much to do with beeing nuts. And the more taxes and laws they put on you the more progress we make in this process, now imagine with the carbon tax you pay even more taxes for your car and whatnot plus food will get incredibly expensive. That makes you even more dependend on them until you ultimately cannot survive without them.

now imagine being whipped and shackled. see the difference? no? no hope for you then.

Hitler was a man who used a weoponized youthbrigade domesticlly. It was called hitlerjugend. Now you have the youthcorps who are teenagers with weapons trained in combat planned to use domesticly. I think it makes some sense, its not neccesary to mention the hitlerjugend but I feel that alot of people dont realize the magnitude of this and think its something good.

wake me up on the next kristallnacht. i want to make a video and put it up on youtube.

If ones opinion is different from the mainstream i think it actually speaks for him

then you'd fit right in with most conspiracy nutters. they seem to think the mere fact of having a different opinion makes them special somehow, regardless of how shoddy the thought that went into forming the opinion. i find most people whose opinion is different from the mainstream are sucking an alternative media *** and just as incapable of thinking for themselves (or even thinking at all) as the average Action McNews viewer.

considering that most people take their opinion from what is fed to them by the controllers. That person is actually smart enough to consider other resources besides the controlled propaganda machines. And seriously all people who do realize that the mainstream lies the most.

so what is so smart about the inability to think critically about 'other resources besides the controlled propaganda machines'? the vast majority of these non-mainstream non-thinkers that i've encountered are absolutely willing to be spoonfed by their precious 'alternative media'. they're as much zombies as the action mcnews crowd.

There really is no independent mainstream media resource. And honestly quite a bit of the " mainstream " people are brainwashed zombies who really have no clue and no opinion on their own because thats what they were conditioned to be. They just love everthing the government does.

Others have no time do research other media and sources or dont even know they exist. The mainstream opinion is not very well researched but fed by the controlled mainstream media outlets and oftne is the truth spun and twisted in a way that they already give you an oinion rather then presenting all the info objectively.

My time is pretty limited too but when I have time and look into some things for me most of the time it is pretty disturbing to see what is really happening and it becomes clear that I cannot believe a word I see on fox news or washington post. Even not all the things they tell is lies but you just cant tell what is and what is not.

fair enough to be skeptical of mainstream media; i just hope you apply the same caution and skepticism to the so-called alternative media/independent media. in my experience most people who 'research' just google until they find exactly what they want to believe confirmed, no matter how shoddy the source. more often than not, the 'independent media' does even less to encourage critical thinking than the mainstream media. and on the tier below the so-called independent media, is the lowest of the low--conspiracy theory youtube documentaries. don't even get me started on those.

p.s. here the first mustardeggs reccepie google spit out : http://www.inmamaskitchen.com/RECIPES/RECIPES/breakfast/eggs/yelmusteggs.html . I dont know hwo good it is but you should try. I recommend potatos as a side dish

ah i thought you had your own special recipe. thanks.

[digitalcat]

Bows to zeusbheld.

[Mustardeggs]

I approve your post.

Though I want to pick up your last paragraph.

I think this kind of bill is exactly what they need and want and what they will keep doing. Thats just how they roll. There will be no slowing down until the people stand up.

Its common practice to impose new laws and taxes and alongside reduce liberties and freedom and establish tyranny under the pretext of real or not so real threats.

And the iraq war clearly shows that if the government has no reasons to do soemthing they want which the public would accept they just make some up.

Again it might be real this time but again theyre totally exploiting it for their own agendas. Imposing taxes, federalizing private property ( important here is that america is practiclly run by private offshore banks ) . So yea I will say it again, be aware what your government does and what bills theyre passing.

I agree with most of that. Increased CCTV, reduced civil liberties, corporate ownership of what should be public services (careful you are sounding like a liberal here).

My point is that while many of the measures being brought in on both sides of the Atlantic certainly have the usual political slant of self serving, there are many benefits from some of them.

What I would like to see a lot more of is activism at community levels, taking responsibility for local issues such as recycling, use of green belt areas etc while at the same time putting pressure on the upper echelons of government for sensible and transparent debate and decisions on things like energy production and emission capping.

I agree with all you said here

[Mustardeggs]

@ zeusbheld, I dont think people with an own opinion are very smart or something special just not as stupid like someone who has none. Maybe you think otherwise because you like people who enjoy your silly stereotyping.

The only thing you seem to be able to do is playing the old " conspiracy nutters " line.

[digitalcat]

@ zeusbheld, I dont think people with an own opinion are very smart or something special just not as stupid like someone who has none. Maybe you think otherwise because you like people who enjoy your silly stereotyping.

The only thing you seem to be able to do is playing the old " conspiracy nutters " line.

Actually he makes a really valid point.

I haven't read all your threads, but from what I did you just blow hot air.

Perhaps its you that causes global warming...

None of your points are valid and the comparisons you draw to prove your point are idiotic.

I really think you should leave the USA for a minute explore the world a little.

Perhaps a developing country where the surveillance is minimum.

OR better yet STFU and go do something about it... rather then blogging.

[Mustardeggs]

Uh, I dont blog or anything. I usually dont post or even talk political. I just stumbled over this thread on the mainpage of this website.

The only one blowing hot air is you my friend. But I will not tell you why , hopefully encouring some much needed critical thinking instead of playing out the old " conspricay loon " card.

In regards to me exploring the world I have to say LOL

Iam from germany and am living in thailand for almost 2 years and have travelled alot of countrys, so much to that.

now gtfo, kthxbye

hopefully back to topic now....

Arizona looking to outlaw climate bill

[CiaranM]

Uh, I dont blog or anything. I usually dont post or even talk political. I just stumbled over this thread on the mainpage of this website.

The only one blowing hot air is you my friend. But I will not tell you why , hopefully encouring some much needed critical thinking instead of playing out the old " conspricay loon " card.

In regards to me exploring the world I have to say LOL

Iam from germany and am living in thailand for almost 2 years and have travelled alot of countrys, so much to that.

if that's the case why the f**k r u so worried about a bill being passed in the US which will have f**k all effect on U or anybody else who doesn't live there !!

[digitalcat]

Uh, I dont blog or anything. I usually dont post or even talk political. I just stumbled over this thread on the mainpage of this website.

The only one blowing hot air is you my friend. But I will not tell you why , hopefully encouring some much needed critical thinking instead of playing out the old " conspricay loon " card.

In regards to me exploring the world I have to say LOL

Iam from germany and am living in thailand for almost 2 years and have travelled alot of countrys, so much to that.

now gtfo, kthxbye

hopefully back to topic now....

Arizona looking to outlaw climate bill

if you traveled so much then how can you be so ignorant?

and what do you care about a tax that has no impact on you?

just move back to Germany where the taxes are looow >:}

While in the land of Thai enjoy the freedom of tax free tuk tuk, and bus exhaust...

[Mustardeggs]

Iam willing to discuss anything with anybody if they dont come out attacking and stereotyping.

I have realized that my first posts were over the top.

I admitted to all the points hobbes made and quite some people agreed on points I made too.

Maybe we can stop the hijacking now and try to stay on topic?

Iam really looking forward to what is happening in arizona and for me hopefull other states will follow.

p.s. not sure if you were serious but taxes in germany arevery high imo

[zeusbheld]

Iam willing to discuss anything with anybody if they dont come out attacking and stereotyping.

I have realized that my first posts were over the top.

I admitted to all the points hobbes made and quite some people agreed on points I made too.

Maybe we can stop the hijacking now and try to stay on topic?

two things:

1) the vast majority of AGW 'skepticism' in interwebs threads like this one isn't skepticism at all but is conspiracy mong nonsense. and most anti-government rants are the same. therefore it *is* on topic

2) giving credit where due, you've toned it down so far, well played.

Iam really looking forward to what is happening in arizona and for me hopefull other states will follow.

it will be interesting to see what happens with that.

p.s. not sure if you were serious but taxes in germany arevery high imo

serious about what? that taxation does not equal slavery? absolutely. which doesn't mean i don't think overly high taxes and government waste are necessarily to the good. but i do think some perspective is called for.