Bangkok Mar 12-14

[Stramash]

dam fxxking proud and honored to be headline news on international media!!!!!

eh???

:?

[LakeGeneve]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/174321/govt-seeks-seeks-talks-for-truce

This is the problem.... army and police armed with shields and batons - Red Shirts throwing hand grenades and shooting live rounds.

Government should have arrested the leaders last week.

Not sure about that Dave.

In the operation this afternoon on Ratchdamnoen Nok ave the army used tear gas and firearms which they discharged with rubber bullets which are considered lethal - esp if applied incorrectly. Shotguns were shown being fired but reportedly with blanks.

What I dont understand is why the soldiers retreated when they had the momentum. Based on all reports they had the momentum and had moved the red shirts down Ratchdamnoen Nok Ave with seemingly few problems but some injuries on both sides. Red Shirt numbers were low at Phan Fa. It was the ideal time to clear out the area They should have proceeded to Phan Fa and secured the whole area but for some reason they moved back to Makhawan and had a stand off with the red shirts who then regrouped. The red then made the soldiers retreat throwing back their own tear gas canisters!

Then soldiers and, police in nearby locations, wait a few hours allowing the reds numbers at Phan Fa to surge 10 fold and for them to arm themselves. The thugs in the reds want a fight. We dont have all the info but why confront them again once you dont have the advantage of numbers, operational momentum or surprise????

[Guest Yim]

11 dead, 571 injured now.

[English_Bob]

Someone please report on Abhisit's TV speech...

[funky_house]

Someone please report on Abhisit's TV speech...

Go to adress below, and click on Tweets from The Nation on left. It is being translated there

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/

Tweets from the Nation

[SweetieBabie]

Someone please report on Abhisit's TV speech...

Follow Chris Fox on FB... he's like super tweeter every 5 seconds...

[olympos]

Someone please report on Abhisit's TV speech...

Follow Chris Fox on FB... he's like super tweeter every 5 seconds...

Chris Fox on FB: 3,300 results... Which one?

[English_Bob]

Chris is a TFer - he's on my Friends List.

Doing a good job.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva announced late Saturday night that there will be independent probes into the deaths occurred during the crackdowns on red-shirt protesters.

Speaking on TV, he said the deaths were apparently caused by M79 grenades, which were also used in several instances of sabotage.

HE said the the government had already exercised utmost restraints but there were incidents that the government needed to take actions to uphold the rule of law.

HE said the government decided to take actions by launching operations to reclaim public spaces.

[beej]

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva announced late Saturday night that there will be independent probes into the deaths occurred during the crackdowns on red-shirt protesters.

Speaking on TV, he said the deaths were apparently caused by M79 grenades, which were also used in several instances of sabotage.

HE said the the government had already exercised utmost restraints but there were incidents that the government needed to take actions to uphold the rule of law.

HE said the government decided to take actions by launching operations to reclaim public spaces.

[LakeGeneve]

I am close to saying meet violence with violence. It works with small numbers, not sure if it would work with such large numbers.

All of those who were calling for troops to be sent into Ratchprasong days ago. I trust you have viewed todays & tonights events at Ratchadamnoen Nok & Ratchadamnoen aves, extrapolated the likely casualty numbers for a much larger crowd and operation, and come to a conclusion of how foolish it would be.

The whole day has been a disaster. The govt has lost the upper hand by now being seen as though they are the aggressors, the reds are seen as the victims and they are now reenergised when at the start of the day their numbers looked depleted. And Thailand yet again has thais killed and bloodshed on the streets.

Govt played right into the reds hands.

[beej]

Come down to Koh Sarn Road, pick up some fishermans pants and cheap booze.....

http://twitpic.com/1elm3f

[olympos]

Come down to Koh Sarn Road, pick up some fishermans pants and cheap booze.....

http://twitpic.com/1elm3f

Sorry, cannot come.... the bridges did not open yet again!

[PiAnt]

All of those who were calling for troops to be sent into Ratchprasong days ago. I trust you have viewed todays & tonights events at Ratchadamnoen Nok & Ratchadamnoen aves, extrapolated the likely casualty numbers for a much larger crowd and operation, and come to a conclusion of how foolish it would be.

The whole day has been a disaster. The govt has lost the upper hand by now being seen as though they are the aggressors, the reds are seen as the victims and they are now reenergised when at the start of the day their numbers looked depleted. And Thailand yet again has thais killed and bloodshed on the streets.

Govt played right into the reds hands.

I have to disagree mate.

It became pretty clear that they would try to get away with more and more; totally disupting everything they could. With no more intent than to do exactly that. Not to win anything whatsoever.

At some point it was going to happen. Better now than later.

Next week, there'll be a whole country of people with nothing to do. If it was left until then, things could, and probably would, be much worse.

[English_Bob]

Totally.

The Reds have been taking more and more liberties with Bangkok. People's lives and livelihoods were being adversely affected.

There was a very reasonable offer to dissolve the house within 35 weeks.

It was flatly rejected for no good reason.

The Reds have been pushing Abhisit to show he is man of action.

Now he has. What else could he do?

[Guest Yim]

he had no choice, but it should have been sooner than this, but everyone knows that the police would never have carried out the courtsorder on arresting the leaders

[English_Bob]

Nation

CRES spokesman Colonel Sansern Kaewkamnerd said at a televised press conference that gunshots were fired by the protesters and injured at least two soldiers.

The press conference took place before a clash erupted later last night when protesters started a gunfight and threw grenades at anti-riot soldiers, causing scores of injuries. At press time, at least eight people were killed and almost 500 injured.

Sansern said it was necessary to crackdown on the red-shirt protesters because they were being violent. He added that the red shirts also tried to storm the 1st Army Region in the morning, and after being pushed back, they returned to Phan Fa Bridge to incite more violence.

The spokesman insisted that the Army operations were in line with the seven internationally accepted crowd-control measures.

Acting government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn said the authorities were left with no choice but to disperse the crowds, adding that troops would only use force when necessary to reclaim areas.

"All actions have been and will be in accordance with human rights, legal and international standards," Panitan explained.

Meanwhile, deputy Army commander General Prayuth Jan-ocha yesterday promised to bring normalcy back to the country as soon as possible. He also called on the red shirts to respect the law and think of the country.

A source said that during a CRES meeting yesterday, Prayuth expressed dissatisfaction at the fact that the red shirts were mistreating soldiers.

From what I've seen the past few days, this report seems pretty truthful.

The army and police had their hands tied. The Reds were free to do what they wanted.

[LakeGeneve]

All of those who were calling for troops to be sent into Ratchprasong days ago. I trust you have viewed todays & tonights events at Ratchadamnoen Nok & Ratchadamnoen aves, extrapolated the likely casualty numbers for a much larger crowd and operation, and come to a conclusion of how foolish it would be.

The whole day has been a disaster. The govt has lost the upper hand by now being seen as though they are the aggressors, the reds are seen as the victims and they are now reenergised when at the start of the day their numbers looked depleted. And Thailand yet again has thais killed and bloodshed on the streets.

Govt played right into the reds hands.

I have to disagree mate.

It became pretty clear that they would try to get away with more and more; totally disupting everything they could. With no more intent than to do exactly that. Not to win anything whatsoever.

At some point it was going to happen. Better now than later.

Next week, there'll be a whole country of people with nothing to do. If it was left until then, things could, and probably would, be much worse.

You could be right but I think waiting was still the better option. The "better now than later" I don't understand.

As you remember I argued to let them be at Ratchprasong and most would go home by Songkran. Maybe that was an incorrect suggestion but now we will never know. We'll see if more come out in the next few days. I also suggested that some areas could be incrementally taken with minimal force to contain the occupation and send a msg that the reds could not do anything they wanted.

The prime strategy being not to inflict injuries as this would give the red shirts a victory. As they could not be seen to initiate violence after last year, and as they have been relatively peaceful, it was incumbant upon the govt not to be seen as the aggressor. We all knew once conflict started that it would get ugly and the thugs in the red shirts would show their true colours and weapons.

Numbers were down today at all locations, maybe that was a pre-Songkran trend , maybe it meant nothing. Phan Fa was ripe for the taking as of 2 days ago. Why launch an operation today to retake Phan Fa and then retreat half way through? Why use rubber bullets and have soldiers discharging weapons (using blanks) which is only a good propaganda tool for the reds and sends really bad images around Thailand and worldwide. Soldiers should not have been used.

Why cease your operation and then restart it a few hours later when the reds have surged in numbers, regrouped and armed themselves with granades as the army & ISOC knows they will in such a scenario. Now we have a more polarised polityical environment, a reenergised red shirts and the stakes are suddenly higher. What do you suggest to be done from here? Want to use more force? Do we still naively think that the use of force will send everyone home? How many thais have to die before everyone calls it quits for this round?

I agree at some point it was probably going to come to this. I would have hoped that point would have been later down the path. Much, much later.

[PiAnt]

I've been, as many of us here have, in and amongst the "protesters"; the families, the couples and the kids.

And I have to tel you, it was a very far cry from the faces of those I saw on the news today. Today was very different.

Way more than enough time has been given to allow them to voice their protests. And way more than enough restraint has been shown. A damn sight more than would ever be shown in US or UK; where they'd have been (violently if necessary) dispersed weeks ago.

With the thought that the "mob" could swell to totally unmanageable proportions in the next few days, the decision to draw a line, forcefully, needed to be taken.

The right decision.

[bigKus]

From what i observed ( thru the live TV news reports) since 1 pm. I saw the troops talk to the redshirts who are in the camps at Phan Fa bridge to leave they provide buses at Nang Leng Horses Racing and there are some redshirts going.

Kwanchai Pripana led the reds to 1st Army Bases without any reason has been claimed.

[koolbreez]

The one big difference with demonstrations like this in the USA, or UK, the demonstrators wouldn't be armed with M79 gernades, and firing them into the crowds of their own people.

This demonstration is unique in the fact that the demonstrators have no qualms at all in killing their own people. The majority of those killed, and injured, has been by gernades. A few by live bullets, but the majority by gernade fire.

From ALL reports, the only ones using gernades, and live ammo are the red shirts. The police/army pulled back when they were simply out gunned. They brought knives to a gun fight. Not that this was bad, but they underestemated the red shirt's uncaring as to who got killed/hurt by the army/police trying to non-lethally break up the demonstrations. The red shirt core was all for being lethal, and the army/police had to regroup.

The time of rubber bullets is over. I predict sharpshooters will now be positioned to take out anyone that gets lethal in the next attempts to break up the demonstrations.

[PiAnt]

I think that the vast majority of protesters will make a quick exit once they realise that this **** just got serious.

All that will be left will be the hardcore few who really have nothing better to do than create trouble on behalf of someone who's laughing his arse off in his penthouse somehwere.

Hopefully he'll get what he deserves.

[LakeGeneve]

The one big difference with demonstrations like this in the USA, or UK, the demonstrators wouldn't be armed with M79 gernades, and firing them into the crowds of their own people.

This demonstration is unique in the fact that the demonstrators have no qualms at all in killing their own people. The majority of those killed, and injured, has been by gernades. A few by live bullets, but the majority by gernade fire.

From ALL reports, the only ones using gernades, and live ammo are the red shirts. The police/army pulled back when they were simply out gunned. They brought knives to a gun fight. Not that this was bad, but they underestemated the red shirt's uncaring as to who got killed/hurt by the army/police trying to non-lethally break up the demonstrations. The red shirt core was all for being lethal, and the army/police had to regroup.

The time of rubber bullets is over. I predict sharpshooters will now be positioned to take out anyone that gets lethal in the next attempts to break up the demonstrations.

I am not sure that this summary is correct if one looks at todays operation. the timings and the press reports of the reds using grenades and live ammo. However, dont forget rubber bullets are also considered as a lethal weapon if inappropriately discharged and soldiers were clearly firing many rounds in the afternoon, some clearly aiming higher than they should.

The events of the afternoon along Ratchadamnoen Nok and at Makhawan prior to the army pulling back about 4pm DO NOT mention the reds using live ammo or grenades. I was watching 4 Thai channels at the time and no reporters at the scene reported this prior to 4pm.

The army may well have pulled back due to apprehensions/intel that the reds were about to use weapons.

It was not until the later operation at Kokwua intersection on Ratchdamnoen at around 8pm that reports of grenades being thrown at troops and live rounds being fired by the reds at troops were reported.

This could be incorrect but this is my understanding based on what has been reported. Perhaps someone can point to an earlier report/conformation?

Alos, I disagree that the army understimated that the reds would use grenades. The army and ISOC have good intel on what the reds have so they would/should have expected it.

[LakeGeneve]

I think that the vast majority of protesters will make a quick exit once they realise that this sh*t just got serious.

All that will be left will be the hardcore few who really have nothing better to do than create trouble on behalf of someone who's laughing his arse off in his penthouse somehwere.

Hopefully he'll get what he deserves.

This is why I don't really understand your take on today nor EB's as I think the opposite will be true. We have already seen predictable reactions in Ching Mai and Udon to todays events.

The reds will have larger crowds at both sites tonight, tomorrow and Monday. Other willbe called into BKK. Most likely todays events , and how it will be spun, will embolden them into more desperate and violent action. They now have some martyrs and think the govt is on the brink - this is what their leaders will say.

The govt will be under pressure for the next few days with some coalition members worried about what flak they will get. The govt will be esp worried about its international image given the number of deaths and injured on both sides. The army and the police will be more reluctant to act promptly next time.

It seems a win the reds when they were losing puff. The narrative will be that they did not engage in violence to initiate such a crackdown (no matter the provocative action at 1st Army base at lunchtime which started this) and they are the victims of govt violence. The thugs and idiots in the UDD and PT now have more of a platform. Look at what Arisman has been saying tonight.

Remember the Oct 7 crackdown on the PAD which resulted in 2 deaths? That was in the context the PAD going to blockade parliament and the police responded with excessive force. Who won the sympathy then, received more support afterwards and who was on the back foot afterwards?

I hope your right, that I am completely wrong (as mostly I am) and that the reds returrn back home. But I think todays events just made it a whole lot messier and this current round more protracted.

Time to sleep and hope for a better day.

[PiAnt]

I think that the vast majority of protesters will make a quick exit once they realise that this sh*t just got serious.

All that will be left will be the hardcore few who really have nothing better to do than create trouble on behalf of someone who's laughing his arse off in his penthouse somehwere.

Hopefully he'll get what he deserves.

This is why I don't really understand your take on today nor EB's as I think the opposite will be true. We have already seen predictable reactions in Ching Mai and Udon to todays events.

The reds will have larger crowds at both sites tonight, tomorrow and Monday. Other willbe called into BKK. Most likely todays events , and how it will be spun, will embolden them into more desperate and violent action. They now have some martyrs and think the govt is on the brink - this is what their leaders will say.

The govt will be under pressure for the next few days with some coalition members worried about what flak they will get. The govt will be esp worried about its international image given the number of deaths and injured on both sides. The army and the police will be more reluctant to act promptly next time.

It seems a win the reds when they were losing puff. The narrative will be that they did not engage in violence to initiate such a crackdown (no matter the provocative action at 1st Army base at lunchtime which started this) and they are the victims of govt violence. The thugs and idiots in the UDD and PT now have more of a platform. Look at what Arisman has been saying tonight.

Remember the Oct 7 crackdown on the PAD which resulted in 2 deaths? That was in the context the PAD going to blockade parliament and the police responded with excessive force. Who won the sympathy then, received more support afterwards and who was on the back foot afterwards?

I hope your right, that I am completely wrong (as mostly I am) and that the reds returrn back home. But I think todays events just made it a whole lot messier and this current round more protracted.

Time to sleep and hope for a better day.

The people I was amongst were ordinary people. They weren't political subversives or terrorists or anything so extreme. They were families, couples; normal people.

I don't believe for one moment that they were considering radicle action; just a chance to let people who matter see that they have problems too. Not just those who already have lots of money and are ok thank you very much.

There are actually some very real issues at the root of this.

They are the people who won't want any part of this . They will go home and the only people who will remain are the core of the Thaksin supporters, whose only objective is to cause harm to the country.

Governments will come and go after all.

[bigKus]

I have many things in mind to post.... reply to Khun LG's post.. but, poor me, lack of English skill..

Oh .. that's P'Ant just said for me.. thanks ja + 1