simply_oriental Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 What is the justification for banning these people from using drugs? My be from Overall effect.In Thailand i don't see it's possible in the rest of my life they will changing.In another countries i don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhumvit_Farang Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 What is the justification for banning these people from using drugs? The authorities don't want people to stop using drugs. They want to CATCH people using drugs. That's how they make their money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
English_Bob Posted May 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 The authorities don't want people to stop using drugs. They want to CATCH people using drugs. That's how they make their money! No way. They catch a miniscule, tiny, infinitesimal fraction of people using drugs. If they were legal, they could tax every single drug user out there. They do it with alcohol and tobacco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 So to summarize thus far: Buying drugs and using them oneself harms no-one - except possibly for the person who chooses to use the drugs. And people have the right to harm themselves. So buying, selling and using drugs should be legal. Some good points, from yourself and others. But the point above does not take into consideration (when there are dependency issues) of the harms done to loved ones, family and the community/society in general. Very rarely do these harms come into play when we look at the lower end drugs such as marijuana (though we have to be aware that the strength of the average marijuana these days is often 3-5 times stronger than it was 20 years ago) mdma, lsd etc. But when we look at the more addictive substances such as heroin, amphetamine, cocaine, crack and methamphetamine, then we are going into the territory of drug use/misuse that not only can damage the physiological and mental health of the user, but can have devastating effects on those around them. I have seen entire families ripped apart from the effects of chaotic drug use; children in care, increases in offending etc etc. What we have to realise is that by regulating the drugs at the lower end of the spectrum (the majority of which are less harmful than tobacco or alcohol) we free up resources (health services, police etc) to deal with the importers of the more dangerous drugs, AND we raise revenue from taxation towards treatment, education with a hell of a lot left over. I can understand SO's point of view; Thailand has never had the culture of recreational drug use that the West has had since the 1960's (I am not counting the use by tourists at the Full Moon Parties etc) The drug use here (of native Thais) tends towards the self destructiveness of yaba and opium/heroin. But it strikes me as strangely hypocritical that a country renowned for its draconian drug laws may soon be a world leader in medicinal marijuana tourism (http://www.pharmiweb.com/pressreleases/pressrel.asp?ROW_ID=41199) What is a fact, without a shadow of a doubt, is that the worldwide war on drugs has been a huge expensive failure. It is surely time to look at new options for how we deal with drugs. Portugal had the balls to do it and their policy has been a success. Switzerland had the vision to look at new ways of treating heroin and cocaine addicts and it has been a success. Surely when one way does not work and another one does, we should be changing our mindsets and policies to embrace the new ways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 But if someone wants to go skydiving, scuba-diving or have sex without a condom, there are no laws stopping those activities even though they have a risk involved.If someone is aware of the risks and chooses to take the risks themselves, isn't that their business? After all, they are adults. It's up to them what they do with their money, right? Technically you have to have a certification to scuba dive or sky dive without the supervision of a qualified professional. They aren't even supposed to sell you a tank of air without being certified. Though both scuba and sky diving are both self regulated and not run by the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 I have a friend who skydives every weekend. And he races dirtbikes. Agreed. A few years back I took a full month+ off and went scuba diving around the Caribbean. Some days I was diving 4 tanks a day. One dive master joked I had more dives over the last month than he had in the same period. But because I'm educated about the dangers I own a dive computer and also calculate the data manually to track my nitrogen loading and stayed well within all all recommended levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandorea Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) IF we're talking about human's rights. so yes, everyone has right to **** his/her own life up by using drugs (or whatever). But the problem is most of crackheads cause problems to their own families, social too. I don't know much about TH now, but I guess death-penalty is still there. Those crackheads don't only spend their money but they spend other people's money too (I'm speaking from a welfare country's point of view). They increase the risk of HIV, and other health problems. When they get high, they can't do ****. Let alone get a job! Tax every single drug user won't do any good. Can you imagine if using drug is legal? Most of us are on drugs? where can we find a sober, decent people? Hospitals will be full with crackheads, and they might not have a place for my old dad when he needs it. I think making drugs legal is stupid and the worse idea ever. I also support banning alcohols (and cigarettes). I KNOW how it feel like to be with an alcoholic, and I believe people who live with those crackheads feel even worse. "People who used drugs and were creative and successful." Can anyone tell me how many percent of them? and for how long they can be creative and successful? (til they die from OD?) .. sorry but that's bullshit! Edited May 24, 2011 by pandorea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 IF we're talking about human's rights. so yes, everyone has right to **** his/her own life up by using drugs (or whatever). But the problem is most of crackheads cause problems to their own families, social too. I don't know much about TH now, but I guess death-penalty is still there. Those crackheads don't only spend their money but they spend other people's money too (I'm speaking from a welfare country's point of view). They increase the risk of HIV, and other health problems. When they get high, they can't do ****. Let alone get a job! Tax every single drug user won't do any good. Can you imagine if using drug is legal? Most of us are on drugs? where can we find a sober, decent people? Hospitals will be full with crackheads, and they might not have a place for my old dad when he needs it. I think making drugs legal is stupid and the worse idea ever. I also support banning alcohols (and cigarettes). I KNOW how it feel like to be with an alcoholic, and I believe people who live with those crackheads feel even worse. "People who used drugs and were creative and successful." Can anyone tell me how many percent of them? and for how long they can be creative and successful? (til they die from OD?) .. sorry but that's bullshit! Sorry Nicky, but there is a lot of naivete in that post. You are missing the point that many have made about the differences between the destructive drugs and the recreational ones. Millions of people use weed, mdma etc, and still hold down responsible jobs and nurture their family. Not one person in this thread has supported the legalisation of heroin or methamphetamine or crack. I did discuss the medical prescribing of heroin for addicts where no other treatment has worked. Switzerland do it and they have seen overdoses, HIV and Hep infection rates, crime and the number of new users DROP. And while we are on HIV; the infection rates amongst drug users has dropped hugely in recent years; through harm reduction, needle exchanges and education. People DO use recreational drugs responsibly, yet we criminalise them for it. And there is also a difference between legalise and regulated. Control the supply and you cut out organised crime (and reduce their income and their other nefarious activities). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Denmark: A country where you can legally own a sawnoff shotgun, but Marmite is illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandorea Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Sorry Nicky, but there is a lot of naivete in that post. You are missing the point that many have made about the differences between the destructive drugs and the recreational ones. Millions of people use weed, mdma etc, and still hold down responsible jobs and nurture their family. Not one person in this thread has supported the legalisation of heroin or methamphetamine or crack. I did discuss the medical prescribing of heroin for addicts where no other treatment has worked. Switzerland do it and they have seen overdoses, HIV and Hep infection rates, crime and the number of new users DROP.And while we are on HIV; the infection rates amongst drug users has dropped hugely in recent years; through harm reduction, needle exchanges and education. People DO use recreational drugs responsibly, yet we criminalise them for it. And there is also a difference between legalise and regulated. Control the supply and you cut out organised crime (and reduce their income and their other nefarious activities). I might miss the point, and it's been awhile since someone credit me as "naive". Take that as a compliment. "the differences between the destructive drugs and the recreational ones." No matter what, Iain. Drugs are drugs in my book, nothing more. This might sound even more "naive"... but if you start using one, it will lead to another stronger. It's like if you're an alcoholic, then you say.. oh, I don't drink beer.. I prefer red wine Pinot Noir or Merlot! ...it surly does sound sophisticated but you're still an alcoholic. kaunitz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaunitz Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 I might miss the point, and it's been awhile since someone credit me as "naive". Take that as a compliment."the differences between the destructive drugs and the recreational ones." No matter what, Iain. Drugs are drugs in my book, nothing more. This might sound even more "naive"... but if you start using one, it will lead to another stronger. It's like if you're an alcoholic, then you say.. oh, I don't drink beer.. I prefer red wine Pinot Noir or Merlot! ...it surly does sound sophisticated but you're still an alcoholic. 3rd paragraph - fully agree! 2nd paragraph - do not agree! I used to drink lots of whisk(e)y, brandy etc. - now I'm on beer and wine. And I also smoke "light" cigarettes! I know a lot of people who smoke grass and never thought of going for something stronger. But I have difficulties somehow to get the line between destructive and recreational drugs, there, I'm again with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Drugs are drugs in my book, nothing more. This might sound even more "naive"... but if you start using one, it will lead to another stronger. Nonsense Nicky. The gateway theory has long been disproved. Why do millions of people smoke weed but never try heroin? Why do millions of people take mdma at weekends but never crack cocaine? The number of recreational users of low harm substances far outweighs those with dependency issues. And we haven't even gone into the myriad of reasons that people DO use destructive drugs. And with the greatest respect, naivete is not a compliment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 3rd paragraph - fully agree!2nd paragraph - do not agree! I used to drink lots of whisk(e)y, brandy etc. - now I'm on beer and wine. And I also smoke "light" cigarettes! I know a lot of people who smoke grass and never thought of going for something stronger. But I have difficulties somehow to get the line between destructive and recreational drugs, there, I'm again with you! You have difficulties with the line between them? Yet you have seen that line in your friends! The line is very simple; refer to my earlier post on 'relative harms', a concept that has been evidenced through quantitative and qualitative research. The most destructive, most harmful drug on this planet is alcohol. Tobacco may kill more through various conditions, but alcohol causes crime, violence, domestic violence, child neglect, child abuse etc etc - far more than heroin, crack or meth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaunitz Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Denmark: A country where you can legally own a sawnoff shotgun, but Marmite is illegal. Yep, because it contains "too many vitamins"(!) - Wikipedia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaunitz Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 You have difficulties with the line between them? Yet you have seen that line in your friends! The line is very simple; refer to my earlier post on 'relative harms', a concept that has been evidenced through quantitative and qualitative research.The most destructive, most harmful drug on this planet is alcohol. Tobacco may kill more through various conditions, but alcohol causes crime, violence, domestic violence, child neglect, child abuse etc etc - far more than heroin, crack or meth. Well, here you definitely have a point! But on the other hand - you CAN use alcohol in a responsible way (how many people like to have their glass of wine and never got drunk in their lives?) and that's something you CAN'T do with H for instance. So there are several differences and it's always about from which side you look at it. I think that H has the same destructive effects as you described for alcohol, just far less people are addicted to Heroine than to alcohol, that's why we mainly read about domestic violence, road traffic accidents, child abuse etc. by alcoholics than by heroin addicts. Even having your daily glass of wine (well, as long as it's not too big ) does not make you an alcoholic, whereas heroine gets you addicted within the first few shots. And what the trouble with statistics is, I think we both know. It always depends what you compile and compare! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandorea Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Nonsense Nicky. The gateway theory has long been disproved. Why do millions of people smoke weed but never try heroin? Why do millions of people take mdma at weekends but never crack cocaine? The number of recreational users of low harm substances far outweighs those with dependency issues.And we haven't even gone into the myriad of reasons that people DO use destructive drugs. And with the greatest respect, naivete is not a compliment. I'm not an expert on drugs, but that's my opinion and it's different from you and others. The questions you asked are also different from what I've seen. I know some people take MDMA during weekends and then take it on weekdays and then go up to Cocaine. Make drugs legal, put taxes on them and governments make money out of it.. and we hope that they will use the money on educate children on awareness of drugs. That sounds too Utopia for me (are you guys on cracks or such?). Specially for those 3rd world countries (yes Thailand is one of them.. sorry folks)..only God knows where the money will be. Give me statistics, give me theories, then I might agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandorea Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Even having your daily glass of wine (well, as long as it's not too big ) does not make you an alcoholic, whereas heroine gets you addicted within the first few shots. Now that I agree with. And what the trouble with statistics is, I think we both know. It always depends what you compile and compare! True!! but at least it has methods. Statistics must base on something and the method must be able to prove. I tend to trust statistics... sad but true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Well, here you definitely have a point! But on the other hand - you CAN use alcohol in a responsible way (how many people like to have their glass of wine and never got drunk in their lives?) and that's something you CAN'T do with H for instance. So there are several differences and it's always about from which side you look at it. I think that H has the same destructive effects as you described for alcohol, just far less people are addicted to Heroine than to alcohol, that's why we mainly read about domestic violence, road traffic accidents, child abuse etc. by alcoholics than by heroin addicts. Even having your daily glass of wine (well, as long as it's not too big ) does not make you an alcoholic, whereas heroine gets you addicted within the first few shots.And what the trouble with statistics is, I think we both know. It always depends what you compile and compare! More naivete. More people use alcohol irresponsibly than any other drug. Fact. No matter how you look at it; from health service figures to crime figures, alcohol is the root cause of more problems than anything else. Heroin MAY get you addicted quickly. But it might not. depends on which route is used, how much etc. If you look at the early history of heroin addiction in the UK, it was around 70% doctors and nurses, using occasionally. I am not defending heroin, far from it. I have seen its destructive qualities day after day. My point is we have to differentiate between the criminal using heroin daily (and stealing to feed habit) and the student or lecturer or engineer or artist using a bit of weed now and again. And yes, statistics can be misleading, but those ones are usually small scale or a limited study. The evidence base I am discussing is unquestionable and involves health and social work professionals, social workers, probation officers and service users themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Originally Posted by kaunitz Even having your daily glass of wine (well, as long as it's not too big ) does not make you an alcoholic, whereas heroine gets you addicted within the first few shots. Now that I agree with. And again, you are both wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandorea Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Yep, because it contains "too many vitamins"(!) - Wikipedia nope, the Danes just hate Marmite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 I'm not an expert on drugs, but that's my opinion and it's different from you and others. The questions you asked are also different from what I've seen. I know some people take MDMA during weekends and then take it on weekdays and then go up to Cocaine. Make drugs legal, put taxes on them and governments make money out of it.. and we hope that they will use the money on educate children on awareness of drugs. That sounds too Utopia for me (are you guys on cracks or such?). Specially for those 3rd world countries (yes Thailand is one of them.. sorry folks)..only God knows where the money will be. Give me statistics, give me theories, then I might agree with you. http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/05/portugal-drugs-debate http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303411604575168231982388308.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/10/25/us-swiss-drugs-idUSTRE69O3VI20101025 http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/44417.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 nope, the Danes just hate Marmite. Good on them. ******* awful stuff. Satan's diarrhoea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandorea Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) More naivete. More people use alcohol irresponsibly than any other drug. Fact. No matter how you look at it; from health service figures to crime figures, alcohol is the root cause of more problems than anything else.Heroin MAY get you addicted quickly. But it might not. depends on which route is used, how much etc. If you look at the early history of heroin addiction in the UK, it was around 70% doctors and nurses, using occasionally. I am not defending heroin, far from it. I have seen its destructive qualities day after day. My point is we have to differentiate between the criminal using heroin daily (and stealing to feed habit) and the student or lecturer or engineer or artist using a bit of weed now and again. And yes, statistics can be misleading, but those ones are usually small scale or a limited study. The evidence base I am discussing is unquestionable and involves health and social work professionals, social workers, probation officers and service users themselves. so, the question is "why more people use alcohol irresponsibly than any other drug?" because it's legal???? it's easier to buy than drugs, and so they don't feel that they do something wrong. Edited May 24, 2011 by pandorea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070417193338.htm http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Support/marijuana http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/25/AR2006052501729.html http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2011/03/national_cancer_institute_adds.php http://www.nationalmssociety.org/about-multiple-sclerosis/what-we-know-about-ms/treatments/complementary--alternative-medicine/marijuana/index.aspx http://www.nationalmssociety.org/about-multiple-sclerosis/what-we-know-about-ms/treatments/complementary--alternative-medicine/marijuana/index.aspx http://www.myprimetime.com/health/fearless_aging/content/aweil/index.shtml http://www.myprimetime.com/health/fearless_aging/content/aweil/index.shtml http://www.oprah.com/health/PTSD-and-MDMA-Therapy-Medical-Uses-of-Ecstasy/ (sheeeeit I am linking to Oprah) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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