Thailand - "Land of Lies"

[English_Bob]

I can't believe someone is STILL using the 'don't-like-it-go-home' argument! It's just childish to suggest someone leave a country because they have a criticism of that country.

I've lived and worked here for 6 years. I love living here and consider it my home. I think Thai people are warm, friendly and helpful. I also think they lie more than the average person.

I don't confine my criticism to politicians but the general populace... staff, friends, lovers, service staff, shop assistants, policemen, beggars and teachers... it's endemic in all walks of life.

'Saving face' is just a convenient phrase to justify lies. It's also used to protect the liar - ie if you bring a lie to attention, you are the bad guy for causing the loss of face.

If Thai people's lying habits are the same as other nationalities, why are there so many forums and comments on this topic? And why do all the long term expats agree with the premise?

[PeeMarc]

So when I see Buddhists lying, cheating and stealing it genuinely saddens me now.

i would say that most Buddhists here would be sad about these things too. But, here, there is a built-in get-out. Just go and 'make merit' and no more guilt. A bit like Catholics with their confessions and Hail Marys.

[Loburt]

For such a devout Buddhist country it's a bit puzzling?

Despite untold millions of observant Christians in the US and Europe, how many of those cultures can honestly be described as Christian in the values they actually put in practice?

What I would say Loburt my pedantic friend is that Thailand is generally a Buddhist country ( About 95% of the population I am lead to believe. I could be wrong.) Now I am of the understanding that on the surface the majority of these people when asked would say they are devout Buddhists and follow the teachings of the Buddha. Maybe underneath it would be a different story and it's a facade. Who knows.

How many people in the west continue in a pretense of religious worship and blatantly break one of it's key elements? Not as many I would guess but it's only conjecture.

The reason why I'm so interested in this aspect is because I've "gone native" as some would say. I've been visiting my local temple for nearly a year now, and through meditation, prayer and teachings, I now follow the three jewels. the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha.

For someone like me new to Buddhism, it was a shock but also a great step in trying to follow the teachings of The Buddha and yes there will be and have been transgressions but on the whole a great change has occured in me over this past year.

So when I see Buddhists lying, cheating and stealing it genuinely saddens me now.

So, umm, no more SuperDrunk for you?

I doubt most Thais would describe themselves as "devout" Buddhists.

[grezzzy_greer]

......Thailand as a whole, as a culture, lives with lies, propoganda, false beliefs, misinformation, avoidance of truth, hidden agendas and general bullshit every single day. .......... is a perfect example, at so many levels that - 'if you keep telling a lie for long enough, it eventually becomes truth'

Hmm...Marc after living all the places that you have, you probably already know as well as I, that almost everywhere suffers from this to some degree - but for the most part it's a little beter disguised, thats all... Oz, UK, Middle East, Asia...certainly Africa...and absolutely America...its how the world works, and how humans live...quite normal...and impossible to change.

[dannyboy]

For such a devout Buddhist country it's a bit puzzling?

Despite untold millions of observant Christians in the US and Europe, how many of those cultures can honestly be described as Christian in the values they actually put in practice?

What I would say Loburt my pedantic friend is that Thailand is generally a Buddhist country ( About 95% of the population I am lead to believe. I could be wrong.) Now I am of the understanding that on the surface the majority of these people when asked would say they are devout Buddhists and follow the teachings of the Buddha. Maybe underneath it would be a different story and it's a facade. Who knows.

How many people in the west continue in a pretense of religious worship and blatantly break one of it's key elements? Not as many I would guess but it's only conjecture.

The reason why I'm so interested in this aspect is because I've "gone native" as some would say. I've been visiting my local temple for nearly a year now, and through meditation, prayer and teachings, I now follow the three jewels. the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha.

For someone like me new to Buddhism, it was a shock but also a great step in trying to follow the teachings of The Buddha and yes there will be and have been transgressions but on the whole a great change has occured in me over this past year.

So when I see Buddhists lying, cheating and stealing it genuinely saddens me now.

So, umm, no more SuperDrunk for you?

I doubt most Thais would describe themselves as "devout" Buddhists.

Like I said Loburt, a few transgressions. But my alcohol intake now is nowhere near what it was. I'm not a hypocrite. I know and understand I need to try harder.

Precept number 5. Intoxicants is a work in progress.

But there, are the key words... know, understand and try.

[PeeMarc]

one must keep in mind that to learn, follow and adhere to Buddhism requires a lot of thought, practice and study. While 95% of Thai are Buddhist, i would say the vast majority just follow the rituals, superstition and symbolism much more than any study or even thinking or reasoning to any real depth. Especially in rural areas or outside cities. Thais tend to learn mostly by rote, rather than analysis. Therefore, suggesting Thai people are honest because theyre Buddhist doesnt really cut it.

[Neo]

So when I see Buddhists lying, cheating and stealing it genuinely saddens me now.

I think it helps to think of most Thai's as followers of Thai Buddhism rather than the teachings of Buddha per se. There are a huge number of genuinely devout Buddhists here, but most people here are a bit more like the nominal Christians in western countries: go to church, say the right things, but don't really have much in-depth understanding of the core teachings. That's where the culture part comes into it. For example, most Thai people I've spoken with about this don't realise that bowing in front of a statue is not actually what Buddha intended, and they consider it a fundamental part of practicing Buddhism. On a deeper level the Thai concept of tamboon is *based* on the concept of karma but has evolved into something quite different. The devout Buddhists mostly have a very clear understanding of karma, and tamboon is a kind of cultural echo of that. It's as if Thai culture is full of pointers to the teachings of Buddha, while remaining a complex and sometimes contradictory mix of previous religions and customs.

Trying to understand that is one of the things that makes Thailand so interesting.

[grezzzy_greer]

agree with PeeMarc. Other countries have their own faults as well, but tend to be more openly self-critical.

Last time I went to Australia and criticised anything they said "If you don't like it here...go back where you came from!" very accepting I dont think...

[beej]

agree with PeeMarc. Other countries have their own faults as well, but tend to be more openly self-critical.

Last time I went to Australia and criticised anything they said "If you don't like it here...go back where you came from!" very accepting I dont think...

This is normally said to anyone who's not white I find.

[dannyboy]

I am in conflicts myself with Thai Buddhism. I became aware and interested in Buddhism because of Thailand but the more I read and the more I am taught about Siddhartha and his teachings the more and more it contradicts what I see in Thailand.

[PeeMarc]

I am in conflicts myself with Thai Buddhism. I became aware and interested in Buddhism because of Thailand but the more I read and the more I am taught about Siddhartha and his teachings the more and more it contradicts what I see in Thailand.

ah...join the club mate. Now...try this matra..."mai pen rai, arai kor dai, mai pen rai, arai kor dai...". After a while, it works.

[dannyboy]

I am in conflicts myself with Thai Buddhism. I became aware and interested in Buddhism because of Thailand but the more I read and the more I am taught about Siddhartha and his teachings the more and more it contradicts what I see in Thailand.

ah...join the club mate. Now...try this matra..."mai pen rai, arai kor dai, mai pen rai, arai kor dai...". After a while, it works.

I think I think too much... :shock:

No problem, up to you...Best advice ever!

[Neo]

agree with PeeMarc. Other countries have their own faults as well, but tend to be more openly self-critical.

Last time I went to Australia and criticised anything they said "If you don't like it here...go back where you came from!" very accepting I dont think...

This is normally said to anyone who's not white I find.

... and also to anyone who is white.

[grezzzy_greer]

For such a devout Buddhist country it's a bit puzzling?

Despite untold millions of observant Christians in the US and Europe, how many of those cultures can honestly be described as Christian in the values they actually put in practice?

BANG!! THAT nail was right on the head!

[grezzzy_greer]

agree with PeeMarc. Other countries have their own faults as well, but tend to be more openly self-critical.

Last time I went to Australia and criticised anything they said "If you don't like it here...go back where you came from!" very accepting I dont think...

This is normally said to anyone who's not white I find.

Yes you are right - thats why I was so surprised (although shouldn't have been) - I am Australian - and I am white! But the Aussies now think their **** doesn't stink, AND that no-one has the right to criticise them.

When I left Australia for Thailand 16 years ago, I thought it wan't as bad as that, but maybe I was wrong...

[PeeMarc]

so, java, do you have an opinion about the premise of this forum topic? If so, what and why? I would be interested to know and discuss. Or do u want to stand on the sideline tossing pebbles?

[zeusbheld]

... :twisted:

HAH! Dean Barrett. his "poetry" is right up there with Joeska's.

[zeusbheld]

PM,

What ? Did you wish to change the subject to "Ex-Gf's"??? :evil: :evil:

CONGRATULATIONS! non sequitur of the week award.

[MisterMatlock]

PM,

What ? Did you wish to change the subject to "Ex-Gf's"??? :evil: :evil:

CONGRATULATIONS! non sequitur of the week award.

And the Afook "Least able to keep things on the down low" award goes to... Oh... Wait...

[PeeMarc]

so, java, do you have an opinion about the premise of this forum topic? If so, what and why? I would be interested to know and discuss. Or do u want to stand on the sideline tossing pebbles?

I'm going to play your part in this one and stand on the sidelines and toss pebbles. I'll stand behind Neo and a few others and yell; YEAH!!" like you do when someone starts in on me.

I've not lived in Thailand. I've only visited several times. I don't feel expert enough to discuss the subject.

I wish no real part in this.

I'll just share some popcorn as is the TF tradition.

aw.. Come on now, thats a tad bitchy mate. Ive jumped in boots an' all on this topic and not stood on any sideline. And do you really feel i cheer when others try to pick on you? I think you hold yourself rather well in these mud fights and turkey slapping sessions. I never knew you cared so much.

[PeeMarc]

so, java, do you have an opinion about the premise of this forum topic? If so, what and why? I would be interested to know and discuss. Or do u want to stand on the sideline tossing pebbles?

I'm going to play your part in this one and stand on the sidelines and toss pebbles. I'll stand behind Neo and a few others and yell; YEAH!!" like you do when someone starts in on me.

I've not lived in Thailand. I've only visited several times. I don't feel expert enough to discuss the subject.

I wish no real part in this.

I'll just share some popcorn as is the TF tradition.

aw.. Come on now, thats a tad bitchy mate. Ive jumped in boots an' all on this topic and not stood on any sideline. And do you really feel i cheer when others try to pick on you? I think you hold yourself rather well in these mud fights and turkey slapping sessions. I never knew you cared so much.

Nah, I've simply noticed a P'marc pattern. Wait until two fellas have jumped in there. Maybe three. Then you stand behind them yelling; "YEAH! YEAH! YOU GUYS TELL 'EM HOW IT IS!"

Besides, I don't feel picked on. It's more like the old days when my little brother would get mad at me and starting wailing away. I would start laughing. The louder I laughed, the faster he would swing. And the less I would feel his little punches. Until at last, he would tire himself out and give up.

What I find even more baffling is that you guys can't see yourselves in the mirror of your complaint.

wow. You really spent some time analysing this. Me thinks you assume too much mate. For one thing TF takes up such a tiny part of my life its almost meaningless. Rather like reading the comics every day, except i get to add a bit to the stories. Secondly, what would these forums be without tossers, axe grinders, psuedo intellectuals, side line heroes, white knights, wanna bes, weirdos, firebrands, idiots, sages and smartarses? Exactly.

[zeusbheld]

agree with PeeMarc. Other countries have their own faults as well, but tend to be more openly self-critical.

Last time I went to Australia and criticised anything they said "If you don't like it here...go back where you came from!" very accepting I dont think...

in the US the attitude is more like "if you don't like it, leave." note the difference, they don't ask if you're from there or not.

[zeusbheld]

PM,

What ? Did you wish to change the subject to "Ex-Gf's"??? :evil: :evil:

CONGRATULATIONS! non sequitur of the week award.

And the Afook "Least able to keep things on the down low" award goes to... Oh... Wait...

i tought i taw a puddy tat. i DID! i DID!

[MisterMatlock]

PM,

What ? Did you wish to change the subject to "Ex-Gf's"??? :evil: :evil:

CONGRATULATIONS! non sequitur of the week award.

And the Afook "Least able to keep things on the down low" award goes to... Oh... Wait...

i tought i taw a puddy tat. i DID! i DID!

Certainly put the cherry on the **** sundae that otherwise was my day... Should be fun having "The Lightning Rod" back for awhile before he's found out.

[Mazzy]

Contrarily from a lot of the people who've contributed to this thread so far, I definitely can't claim expertise on Thai culture and won't comment on this particular aspect of the question.

However, what I do find interesting is that some of those that have made the harshest comments on Thai culture are actually the most sensitive when it comes to receiving critiques on their own culture/western ideology & values (although they don't seem to have realized that). Interesting...