Santika New Year Party Tragedy

[LakeGeneve]

None of the owners will be held responsible for running an unlicensed death trap.

f*cking SAD!

Well most likely not full accountability but according to the same Nation article some owners have been charged with negligence causing death. One count or 64 counts is unclear. And then there are the seriously injured still in hospital....

The death toll was high because there were few exits and the windows on the upper floors had iron bars across them.

The other five people charged in connection with the fire are owners and managers of the club who face charges of negligence causing death and admitting under-age people. One of the men remains at large

.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/worldhotnews/30094288/Thai-rock-singer-charged-over-Santika-pub-inferno

[steevolution]

During my first year here I was taken on a tour of several office buildings on Silom Road by an Australian fire and building safety expert.

They were all fire traps.

And the one place in Bangkok he said he would never let his wife and children enter because the potential for disaster was so high was ...

MBK.

gotta agree agree agree with your Aussie friend. i go to MBK often, but every time i do, as i trek for miles trying to find a way to get from floor to floor, i imagine what the pimping shiitehole would look like if alla that garbage started to burn... and the mental picture is not pretty.

yeah it's great, captive customers, they gotta look at yor crapforsale, until the eight story cage starts to burn and the only way down is to jump... yucko.

[steevolution]

Sorry the link was wrong, its on page 28 at the bottom.......

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Fire-Santika-Night-Club-t232984.html&st=675

See link for photos.

1st person's account posted in another forum

I would like to share my experience with you guys when the night this incident happen. i was there and i am a Singaporean celebrating my new year countdown there.

Not long after the count down, the band started their normal route playing on the stage. my table was just about 4 meters away on the left hand side (just below the V.I.P area with table cushion) of the stage.

This is my girlfriend which i took a photo of her and right behind is the performing stage. The mention "White Coffin" suppose to be the Disc Jockey playing station had already been move to the right hand side of the stage.

we were given i call it "fire sprinkle" before the countdown began and this is not the cause of fire. we enjoy while everybody in the club were waving it happily as the clock welcome the year 2009. It was an enjoyable moment and there is another pyrotechnics display outside the club. The pyrotechnics display were ignited on top of an old building opposite the club.

after the display finished outside the club, i and my gf enter back inside the club about 10 minutes later, misfortune incident happen. It was the house band when the incident happened. i am not sure who is the "smart guy" that plan this show because they tied a pyrotechnics infront the bass band. it was ignited when the singer jumped up. i was just 4meters away from the stage so i can see clearly that after ignition, the remain base of the pyrotechnics still on fire and in my mind i was wandering will it burn the stage? i lay my eyes on it and about 6-7 seconds later it died off. But less than 1 minutes, just above the roof of the stage, fire broke out fiercely. the singer and band started to run and people started moving towards the "only exist" as patronise/clubber known.

i hold my gf hand and walk in double pace towards the entrance. in my mind, i know that there should be enough time to get out if we happen to stay calm. but things were not as my predicted. the entrance being jammed and unmovable. with the smoke burning in fast, i detour a level down which is the toilet. upon entering the toilet, i can see people still cleaning their hands and washing their face unknowing what is happening outside? i can see a big size man not knowing his nationality looking surprise because my gf is with me when i enter the gent. at the end of the toilet, there is a big glass door which i taught there might be another entrance out but upon reaching, it was just another dead end.

i think to myself at this time that i shall not died here as it just the begining of the year. while i was thinking way to get out, the whole place blacked out. about 3-5minutes later, i say to myself that i should make a 2nd attempt out thinking the entrance should be cleared and without much consider i grap my gf hand and headed upwards toward the entrance again.

before climbing up the stair, i can see 2 ladies holding hands togather trying to make their way up but fell off trumbling down a small flight of stairs. another lady was seen sqauting at the stair crying and i make my way up to 1level. i can see many people were lying on the ground and the bodies were stacked up about 3 lying human height. it was a really impossible task to go thru as they are victims of a stampede. the atmostphere is smoking up and temperature rising so i pull my gf hand not letting go of her headed back to the toilet. she also fell because the visibility is very low and there are still people trying to get out. (the toilet and entrance is just a flight of stairs up and about 8meters distance to get outside)

the atmostphere inside the toilet is less smokey than outside so i took of my shirt and make it wet. we sitted on the floor just to lay low started putting water on our bodies and cover the wet shirt on our faces. there is a security/bouncer at that time staying togather with us in the toilet. he started to tell everybody in the toilet to stay calm as we will be safe here. there were about 20-30 persons stranded inside the gents not sure any inside the ladies.

the fire still burning on top of us and you can hear things falling down and i am worried that the roof of the toilet might not take it. everybody stay very quiet and observe the surrounding, i can see bright light outside and the only thing i can do now was chanting "Namo tassa".

about 20-30minutes later, i can felt a stream of warm water flowing down into the toilet on my buttock area and immediately know that the fire department had arrived. this told me i am only 40% safe and continue to sit quietly and wait.

about 10-15minutes later, 2 firemen came inside wearing breathing gear and i know that the fire already being control/extinguish. i grap my gf hand and with the advice of the fireman proceed out with caution climbing up the stair.

the first sence that i saw was a woman leg; body face down all charcoal and a man laying face up, both hand stiff pointing up. this man should be the one that i saw when i enter the gents while escaping because of his big size. further up were the stack of stampede bodies about 3 lying human body height at the entrance. we were lead out towards a wall that has been knock down on the other side.

there were 8 of us in this group, i'm the only Singaporean & my friends are all Thai. 2 of them manage to escape out when the fire started. 6 of us including me hided inside the toilet. 1 of the lady in my group was too shock had been sent to hospital for some light treatment. My GF has a wound on her left feet when she stepped on a burning debris. All of us were lucky to be alive.

i cried in my heart when i saw all the bodies lying at the entrance and the effort all Thai's civil servants had put in especially the Wat Hualumpong (Sam Yam) Medical Group. I went to Sam Yam today to do another donation and saw them pining up pictures of decease bodies from Santika which had been burnt to charcoal.

i went back to Santika yesterday night to lay flower and light candles for those decease. May they Rest In Peace. I Observed the building and conclude if there isn't a lower level toilet at that time, we will be in the list because everything on ground were burnt.

i post this because i happen to notice that a forum member friend brother was among the dead which i felt the family should know what had happened.

this is a Siam Amulet forum, should be wandering what i am wearing? It a 20baht tamboon Somjed with a sleep Buddha behind. This Temple is not far from LP Pae Temple. This Temple house a very huge sleeping buddha which i am also born at that day.

(Above article is my personel experience encounter just to share and hope others to know my personel situation. Sorry that i will not reply to any post)

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this is f-ing hard core. he's talking about fighting to survive--using his brain--in a shithole that most of us, well a lot of us, have been in. those stairs down to the Santika pisspit were a joke... all the stairs in the place were a joke... F--K i'm so glad i wasn't there. i've seen how people panic in spots like this--a BART train stalled under the Bay with no power atall, totall blackness black hole can't see yor hand in front of your face--so i know it's true what he says, the people died trampled in a stampede.

i don't know if i'd have had the balls to hunker down like that... but then maybe it was the only choice... F--K.

[LakeGeneve]

The reported facts in this case just get more surreal if somewhat tragically unsurprising. After the debacle of the police investigation being shown to be lacking and inadequate to protect certain people by the Justice Ministry we now have the amazing revelation that;

The Santika pub never paid excise tax because inspectors ruled there was no alcohol or dancing on the premises, an anti-corruption agency says.

I guess the inspectors conducted their inspection blindfolded and limited to the carpark!

Full story: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/11107/dry-santika-evaded-excise-tax

[Neo]

I guess the inspectors conducted their inspection blindfolded and limited to the carpark!

Full story: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/11107/dry-santika-evaded-excise-tax

And the corruption started even before it was built...

Justice Ministry investigators in charge of the Santika case, have found signatures of an architect and a construction-supervising engineer of the pub construction had been forged.

...

Their forged signatures were also found on the construction licence applications for 33 other buildings in Bangkok's Bang Khen district.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/136187/forged-signatures-on-santika-building-licence

[grezzzy_greer]

During my first year here I was taken on a tour of several office buildings on Silom Road by an Australian fire and building safety expert.

They were all fire traps.

And the one place in Bangkok he said he would never let his wife and children enter because the potential for disaster was so high was ...

MBK.

Yes I recall the same horror at seeing the inside of MBK when I first came here, and that was in 92 - it was unbelievable at that time - it has been fixed up and made MUCH better these days - but it is still a fire trap for certain. I hate going there at all - why bother when you can get things in many other, much safer and more pleasant surroundings elsewhere in the city.

It's not just about fire codes - it's every time a regulation is there for safety - if it makes things a bit uncomfortable - it will be ignored. Look at seat belts - same problem - the regulations are there to help save your life, but in Thailand people would rather feel temporarily comfortable, than safe.

Very sad for all...

[PeeMarc]

I guess the inspectors conducted their inspection blindfolded and limited to the carpark!

Full story: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/11107/dry-santika-evaded-excise-tax

And the corruption started even before it was built...

Justice Ministry investigators in charge of the Santika case, have found signatures of an architect and a construction-supervising engineer of the pub construction had been forged.

...

Their forged signatures were also found on the construction licence applications for 33 other buildings in Bangkok's Bang Khen district.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/136187/forged-signatures-on-santika-building-licence

I love this bit...

"Pol Lt Col Chanin Wachirapraneekool said the whole file of documents related to Santika pub operation licence, including the pub's blueprint, has disappeared from Wattana district office."

******* typical in a country where the police are both one of the 2 mafia as well as supposed to be the peoples protector and server :roll:

[LakeGeneve]

And you have to equally love this in todays Post'

The Excise Department is claiming that the Santika pub had no dance floor, so was not required to pay excise tax over the past five years. The department's director-general, Sirinuj Bisonyabut, yesterday insisted the Santika pub operator, White and Brothers 2003 Co, was not required to pay excise tax as there was no dance floor in the pub.

In addition, the law only requires Excise Department officials to inspect such venues between 6am and 6pm. At such times, there was no dancing in the pub, according to the director-general.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/11183/no-dance-floor-so-no-tax-for-santika

I don't know what it was called where I used to dance at Sanitka........

This case just gets more surreal like a Monty Python skit!

[babyoiy]

I'm glad that thise case is no longer with Jongrak. :twisted:

[beej]

And you have to equally love this in todays Post'

The Excise Department is claiming that the Santika pub had no dance floor, so was not required to pay excise tax over the past five years. The department's director-general, Sirinuj Bisonyabut, yesterday insisted the Santika pub operator, White and Brothers 2003 Co, was not required to pay excise tax as there was no dance floor in the pub.

In addition, the law only requires Excise Department officials to inspect such venues between 6am and 6pm. At such times, there was no dancing in the pub, according to the director-general.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/11183/no-dance-floor-so-no-tax-for-santika

I don't know what it was called where I used to dance at Sanitka........

This case just gets more surreal like a Monty Python skit!

Its all a bit UH-OH we're f**ked lets make up some dumb excuses.

I like the way if a business operates after 6 pm its exempt of TAX :roll:

[Theshadow]

I was there that night at Santika and almost died.

I am 99% sure it was the band who started the fire by using a firework.

Ironically the band escaped without a scratch by using a secret exit backstage.

The cowards did not even have the decency to take 10 seconds to tell people there was a fire and an exit backstage. This omission certainly cost lives.

[vbroker]

I was there that night at Santika and almost died.

I am 99% sure it was the band who started the fire by using a firework.

Ironically the band escaped without a scratch by using a secret exit backstage.

The cowards did not even have the decency to take 10 seconds to tell people there was a fire and an exit backstage. This omission certainly cost lives.

Congrats making it out alive and welcome back. I imagine anytime you're in an enclosed space there you'll want to know where the nearest exits are just by default. If you're up for it, many would be interested in a moment by moment description of your particular experience there that night. Hope you're well.

[Ngairo]

I was there that night at Santika and almost died.

I am 99% sure it was the band who started the fire by using a firework.

Ironically the band escaped without a scratch by using a secret exit backstage.

The cowards did not even have the decency to take 10 seconds to tell people there was a fire and an exit backstage. This omission certainly cost lives.

Glad your still breathing....would also like to hear more if you don't have problems re-living it.

[Theshadow]

I will be posting an account of what happened in the next few days....stay tuned

[Theshadow]

Yes I am happy to give an account of what happened, I think its important for people to know:

Just a couple of years ago I witnessed a huge club on Sai 3 in Pattaya called Route 999 burn to ashes leaving a huge death toll. Since then I have been very wary of going to nightclubs in Thailand, and when I do visit I always try to keep myself close to exits. Funnily enough, I had been to Santika numerous times before the disaster and had determined it as ?safe? in comparison to other clubs I had visited. Clubs like Curve, Jet and several others get incredibly overcrowded and it becomes literally impossible to move inside. One cannot help worrying if fire exits are accessible. Believe me, after being in the Santika inferno, I sincerely think that if a fire were to break out in any of these other Ekkamai clubs everyone would perish.

So here is what happened at the Santika: At around midnight everyone in the club was informed that there would be a fireworks display outside and were handed sparklers to celebrate the countdown. At this point I got nervous as the idea of drunken people handling sparklers and possibly fireworks, albeit small ones, chilled me to the bone. I promptly headed outside.

After the fireworks display had ended and I felt that it was safe to re-enter the club without a sparkler or firework exploding in my face, I headed back into the impending disaster area. At this point the club was extremely crowded so I headed up to the second level to get a better vantage point in order to watch the band. It was my intention to stay on the second level; however, a call of nature meant that I needed to head down to the toilets situated on the lower level at the far end of the club.

As I emerged I heard some people shouting and the smashing of glasses. I did not pay too much attention to it as I just assumed it was drunken behaviour. I caught a glimpse of the commotion and was shocked to see the entire stage in flames, and the band was nowhere in sight. Several seconds later, burning embers began falling from the ceiling igniting the whole dance area which was filled with bottles of alcohol, creating instant Molotov cocktails. Several people were set on fire and began screaming. All this caused a wild stampede for the nearest exit - a tiny verander door.

The fire raged on and everyone was caught in a horrendous bottleneck at the door. There were hundreds of people pushing and shouting, but nobody was going anywhere. Soon the room filled with thick toxic black smoke. Then the lights went out and we left in total darkness. Worse, a nauseating smell began emanating. It was the sickly smell of burning flesh. With this, mass panic ensued. I had two choices, I could either crawl along the floor in the hope of avoiding the toxic cloud and risk getting trampled to death, or try and fight my way to the door, but risk choking ? I chose the latter.

It only took a few breaths before I could feel the toxic smoke burning my lungs and soon I became asphyxiated, falling to the ground along with numerous others around me. It was a terrible feeling of helplessness. As I veered in and out of consciousness, I was aware that just a short distance behind me people were being incinerated and the fire and heat was creeping nearer and nearer. In the moment of my collapse, I made a pathetic attempt to brace myself against the heat and smoke, but as it became obvious there was no any way out of this situation, I realise it was more of an instinctive preparation to die. It was an extraordinary feeling, a stunned calm, almost like someone waiting to be executed.

If there is any comfort I can offer to the family and friends of those who perished, it is to say the end would have been very quick. It all happened so fast. I am one of the few lucky ones as I am here to tell the story. I was saved by someone who somehow woke me up and pushed me or dragged me to the exit...It?s very vague. No words or expression can give enough thanks to those who acted so bravely on the night. I am indebted.

Here are some other interesting and eery tidbits you might like to think about:

the party was on the last day of operation of the Santika Pub

- the party was dubbed the goodbye party (goodbye indeed!)

- the name of the band that played on that sad night is Burn

- the website of the Santika Pub (meanwhile shut down) was full of flames

[LakeGeneve]

Yes I am happy to give an account of what happened, I think its important for people to know:

The fire raged on and everyone was caught in a horrendous bottleneck at the door. There were hundreds of people pushing and shouting, but nobody was going anywhere. Soon the room filled with thick toxic black smoke. Then the lights went out and we left in total darkness. Worse, a nauseating smell began emanating. It was the sickly smell of burning flesh. With this, mass panic ensued. I had two choices, I could either crawl along the floor in the hope of avoiding the toxic cloud and risk getting trampled to death, or try and fight my way to the door, but risk choking ? I chose the latter.

It only took a few breaths before I could feel the toxic smoke burning my lungs and soon I became asphyxiated, falling to the ground along with numerous others around me. It was a terrible feeling of helplessness. As I veered in and out of consciousness, I was aware that just a short distance behind me people were being incinerated and the fire and heat was creeping nearer and nearer. In the moment of my collapse, I made a pathetic attempt to brace myself against the heat and smoke, but as it became obvious there was no any way out of this situation, I realise it was more of an instinctive preparation to die. It was an extraordinary feeling, a stunned calm, almost like someone waiting to be executed.

If there is any comfort I can offer to the family and friends of those who perished, it is to say the end would have been very quick. It all happened so fast. I am one of the few lucky ones as I am here to tell the story. I was saved by someone who somehow woke me up and pushed me or dragged me to the exit...It?s very vague. No words or expression can give enough thanks to those who acted so bravely on the night. I am indebted.

Compelling reading and many thanks for taking the time and effort to give us all some insight into this horrific event and graphically highlight the death trap of everyone being caught exiting the front. You are indeed very fortunate and I hope that you are healing well.

It would be interesting to know if you have had any contact from any thai officials investigating the incident?

Wishes for a speedy recovery for all those still in hospital.

[Theshadow]

I have heard nothing from the Thai authorities about this matter.

Santika keep calling me and offering me a measly 10,000 baht for my near death experience - naturally I am refusing.

The embassies are washing their hands of the matter as they usually do.

[Fujico]

Alex,

Thank you for taking the time to write here about it.

It is terrible... there is definitely only a fine line between life and death.

I hope you will get over all difficulty.

[babyoiy]

I have heard nothing from the Thai authorities about this matter.

Santika keep calling me and offering me a measly 10,000 baht for my near death experience - naturally I am refusing.

The embassies are washing their hands of the matter as they usually do.

So u were outside but got back to face such experience... what a bad luck but not all bad as you made it at the end... I hope you don't have much problem with your body. Surprised to hear u are the eyewitnessed from 2 infernos... what a life!

At first I disagreed when ppl saying how come they offer only a little money to the victims and those injured.. I was thinking that, at least they (Santika woner and shareholders) are trying to help. But later I heard that those who agreed to receive the money will have to sign on some agreement so once they agreed with it and signed then mean they accept and can't file any complain later.. That's pretty tricky and mean they are not going to offer any further help after this, it made me lost trust to the owner. It looked like he was very sorry for what had happened, he seemed to be in shocked still when he was being interview... but right now I'm not so sure anymore.

Plus more and more illegal things come up. Police said the vocal of Burn light firework and then shortly another team saying it was not him.

No doubt why no one in a band been harm, they are just a few step from the back exit. And in Santika, with no light, I can imagine how terrible it could be. If I were there I would not make it for sure.

[alvish]

New Year 08 I was in Santika at the furthest / back and upstairs..

New Year 09 in the UK my mum woke me up in the morning to tell me and for probably the 1st time in many years they saw me near in tears... I don't know why it disturbed me so much and still does I've been mute about it till now.. hate to think about it... think wat disturbs me the most is that it can easily happen again in Bangkok.. Santika was better than most at safety yet the rest are still open. I'm gonna be paranoid from now on even going to MBK etc.

[Treborz]

Yes I am happy to give an account of what happened, I think its important for people to know:

Just a couple of years ago I witnessed a huge club on Sai 3 in Pattaya called Route 999 burn to ashes leaving a huge death toll. Since then I have been very wary of going to nightclubs in Thailand, and when I do visit I always try to keep myself close to exits. Funnily enough, I had been to Santika numerous times before the disaster and had determined it as ?safe? in comparison to other clubs I had visited. Clubs like Curve, Jet and several others get incredibly overcrowded and it becomes literally impossible to move inside. One cannot help worrying if fire exits are accessible. Believe me, after being in the Santika inferno, I sincerely think that if a fire were to break out in any of these other Ekkamai clubs everyone would perish.

So here is what happened at the Santika: At around midnight everyone in the club was informed that there would be a fireworks display outside and were handed sparklers to celebrate the countdown. At this point I got nervous as the idea of drunken people handling sparklers and possibly fireworks, albeit small ones, chilled me to the bone. I promptly headed outside.

After the fireworks display had ended and I felt that it was safe to re-enter the club without a sparkler or firework exploding in my face, I headed back into the impending disaster area. At this point the club was extremely crowded so I headed up to the second level to get a better vantage point in order to watch the band. It was my intention to stay on the second level; however, a call of nature meant that I needed to head down to the toilets situated on the lower level at the far end of the club.

As I emerged I heard some people shouting and the smashing of glasses. I did not pay too much attention to it as I just assumed it was drunken behaviour. I caught a glimpse of the commotion and was shocked to see the entire stage in flames, and the band was nowhere in sight. Several seconds later, burning embers began falling from the ceiling igniting the whole dance area which was filled with bottles of alcohol, creating instant Molotov cocktails. Several people were set on fire and began screaming. All this caused a wild stampede for the nearest exit - a tiny verander door.

The fire raged on and everyone was caught in a horrendous bottleneck at the door. There were hundreds of people pushing and shouting, but nobody was going anywhere. Soon the room filled with thick toxic black smoke. Then the lights went out and we left in total darkness. Worse, a nauseating smell began emanating. It was the sickly smell of burning flesh. With this, mass panic ensued. I had two choices, I could either crawl along the floor in the hope of avoiding the toxic cloud and risk getting trampled to death, or try and fight my way to the door, but risk choking ? I chose the latter.

It only took a few breaths before I could feel the toxic smoke burning my lungs and soon I became asphyxiated, falling to the ground along with numerous others around me. It was a terrible feeling of helplessness. As I veered in and out of consciousness, I was aware that just a short distance behind me people were being incinerated and the fire and heat was creeping nearer and nearer. In the moment of my collapse, I made a pathetic attempt to brace myself against the heat and smoke, but as it became obvious there was no any way out of this situation, I realise it was more of an instinctive preparation to die. It was an extraordinary feeling, a stunned calm, almost like someone waiting to be executed.

If there is any comfort I can offer to the family and friends of those who perished, it is to say the end would have been very quick. It all happened so fast. I am one of the few lucky ones as I am here to tell the story. I was saved by someone who somehow woke me up and pushed me or dragged me to the exit...It?s very vague. No words or expression can give enough thanks to those who acted so bravely on the night. I am indebted.

Here are some other interesting and eery tidbits you might like to think about:

the party was on the last day of operation of the Santika Pub

- the party was dubbed the goodbye party (goodbye indeed!)

- the name of the band that played on that sad night is Burn

- the website of the Santika Pub (meanwhile shut down) was full of flames

Very moving story but the last part of it is irrelevant so why point it out?

It was a horrible tragedy and of course i don't envy you being there but, conspiracy theories are insensitive and well out of line with events such as this

The fact it was called 'goodbye santika' was unfortunate, nothing else. Burn were the house band....they didn't just play that night and one (yes one) small fire .gif on the website doesn't constitute it being 'full of flames'.

I appreciate you providing your first hand experience, i really do, i saw your story reported in the UK news and you are extremely lucky to still be with us but i'm not sure the relatives of those that were "set on fire and began screaming" are comforted by the fact they met a 'quick' end.

Some things are best kept to ones self.

Edit - Sorry had a few drinks last night and while i wont delete anything i apologise if what i have written comes across a bit strong but I feel quite strongly about people putting conspiracy theories on tragic events (i was the same with 911).

[Theshadow]

Alex,

Thank you for taking the time to write here about it.

It is terrible... there is definitely only a fine line between life and death.

I hope you will get over all difficulty.

Thanks, I think its important that people know the severity of such a situation and be more aware when they are in a club atmosphere, especially in Thailand.

[babyoiy]

Very moving story but the last part of it is irrelevant so why point it out?

It was a horrible tragedy and of course i don't envy you being there but, conspiracy theories are insensitive and well out of line with events such as this

The fact it was called 'goodbye santika' was unfortunate, nothing else. Burn were the house band....they didn't just play that night and one (yes one) small fire .gif on the website doesn't constitute it being 'full of flames'.

I appreciate you providing your first hand experience, i really do, i saw your story reported in the UK news and you are extremely lucky to still be with us but i'm not sure the relatives of those that were "set on fire and began screaming" are comforted by the fact they met a 'quick' end.

Some things are best kept to ones self.

Edit - Sorry had a few drinks last night and while i wont delete anything i apologise if what i have written comes across a bit strong but I feel quite strongly about people putting conspiracy theories on tragic events (i was the same with 911).

I was amazed to see that part as well, not only you...

[eagle]

t was a horrible tragedy and of course i don't envy you being there but, conspiracy theories are insensitive and well out of line with events such as this

Since he was there and almost died I can see why he has been spending so much time going over the fire so I wouldn't be judging him.

[Treborz]

t was a horrible tragedy and of course i don't envy you being there but, conspiracy theories are insensitive and well out of line with events such as this

Since he was there and almost died I can see why he has been spending so much time going over the fire so I wouldn't be judging him.

Granted, but, I would think the people that were actually there would be the last people to look at conspiracies and the first people to actually look at how things can be improved in other venues so that something like this doesnt happen again.

Still i guess until i'm in a situation like that (and touch wood i never am) i wouldn't know how i would react.