Monk Etiquette

[Stramash]

A Buddhist preacher in Thailand has announced plans for new guidelines aimed at curbing the flamboyant behaviour of gay and transgender monks.

The "good manners" curriculum - the country's first - is being introduced in the northern province of Chiang Rai.

The senior monk told the BBC he was particularly concerned by effeminate activities among novices such as the wearing of make-up and tight robes.

More than 90% of the Thai population are followers of Buddhism.

The BBC's Jonathan Head in Bangkok says tales of monks behaving badly are nothing new in Thailand.

In recent years, they have been accused of abuses of their exalted position in society that range from amassing dozens of luxury cars, to running fake amulet scams, to violating their vows of celibacy, our correspondent says.

Senior monk Phra Maha Wudhijaya Vajiramedhi told the BBC he would address issues like smoking, drinking alcohol, walking and going to the toilet properly, which are all detailed in the traditional 75 Dharma principles of Buddhism, and the 227 precepts for monks.

He was especially concerned, he said, by the flamboyant behaviour of gay and transgender monks, who can often be seen wearing revealingly tight robes, carrying pink purses and having effeminately-shaped eyebrows.

Thailand has a very large and visible population of transgender men, and Phra Vajiramedhi acknowledged that it was difficult to exclude them from the monkhood but he hoped his course could at least persuade them to curb their more extrovert habits.

If successful, the "good manners" course, at the Novice Demonstration School, would be replicated at other Buddhist monasteries and seminaries, he said.

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I can understand the smoking, drinking, tight robes etc, but who goes to the toilet flamboyantly???

(answers on a postcard to; admin, c/o TF)

[eagle]

you really want an answer :shock:

[Admin_2]

A few nights ago, I went out to dinner with a few TF'ers to Vertigo, a very nice bar/restaurant on the top of the Banyan Tree hotel.

Halfway through our meal, we saw a couple of monks sitting a few tables away from us drinking juice. This was pretty surprising as this is a place where a glass of orange juice costs at least 200 baht.

Can any Thais/Buddhists shed some light on whether or not this is acceptable? What would you think if you were to see this?

[Stramash]

you really want an answer :shock:

yes Jerry, am interested as to whether these would make suitable threads;

a) do flamboyant toilet habits contribute to global warming?

Is flamboyancy in toilet habits ethical?

c) are girls with flamboyant toilet habits hotter than Bangkok girls?

d) what are you doing flamboyantly right now?

e) do flamboyant blow jobs matter?

:wink:

[eagle]

flamebouyant ?

[PavelRus]

A few nights ago, I went out to dinner with a few TF'ers to Vertigo, a very nice bar/restaurant on the top of the Banyan Tree hotel.

Halfway through our meal, we saw a couple of monks sitting a few tables away from us drinking juice. This was pretty surprising as this is a place where a glass of orange juice costs at least 200 baht.

Can any Thais/Buddhists shed some light on whether or not this is acceptable? What would you think if you were to see this?

Nothing surprising. Some of Russian priests ,for example, ride a very expensive cars like a Lamborghini.

[GermanUsa]

I am going to become a monk. Since I like Banyan Tree Hotel.

[pandorea]

A few nights ago, I went out to dinner with a few TF'ers to Vertigo, a very nice bar/restaurant on the top of the Banyan Tree hotel.

Halfway through our meal, we saw a couple of monks sitting a few tables away from us drinking juice. This was pretty surprising as this is a place where a glass of orange juice costs at least 200 baht.

Can any Thais/Buddhists shed some light on whether or not this is acceptable? What would you think if you were to see this?

I would think that the owner of the restaurant "invited" those monks for some ceremony. If they were invited they can't turn the invitation down but they should "think" whether or not it's suitable place for a monk to be and they should have tell the host that they prefer to sit somewhere more private. BUT if they went there by themselves and ordered that darn orange juice (or perhaps paid with credit cards?) that is unacceptable. BUT again, who would dare to say anything?

I went to a temple in Copenhagen a few times and I've decided not to participate any activity when I get to know that the temple has "ladyboy-beauty contest" yearly. I have nothing against ladyboys but I don't agree with run a beauty contest at a temple.

[friendlyCat]

monks behaving badly.....this sounds like the name for a TV show.

[eagle]

monks behaving badly.....this sounds like the name for a TV show.

shhhhhh

[BJ]

What's the difference from a Monk having food or a drink on offering than a Police having a free feed extorted from owners through their job?

From what I have seen of Monks or any person receiving free isn't it human nature.

[Guest FLGlenn]

New TV reality show idea: Monks Gone Wild!

[pandorea]

What's the difference from a Monk having food or a drink on offering than a Police having a free feed extorted from owners through their job?

From what I have seen of Monks or any person receiving free isn't it human nature.

Monks practice against nature. I can't remember how many rules they have, something like over 200? and all of them are against nature. I think that's an idea of being a monk.

Just to be fair, we have good monks, bad monk and something in between, like every "professional".

[SweetieBabie]

I would think that the owner of the restaurant "invited" those monks for some ceremony. If they were invited they can't turn the invitation down but they should "think" whether or not it's suitable place for a monk to be and they should have tell the host that they prefer to sit somewhere more private. BUT if they went there by themselves and ordered that darn orange juice (or perhaps paid with credit cards?) that is unacceptable. BUT again, who would dare to say anything?

A few nights ago, I went out to dinner with a few TF'ers to Vertigo, a very nice bar/restaurant on the top of the Banyan Tree hotel.

Halfway through our meal, we saw a couple of monks sitting a few tables away from us drinking juice. This was pretty surprising as this is a place where a glass of orange juice costs at least 200 baht.

Can any Thais/Buddhists shed some light on whether or not this is acceptable? What would you think if you were to see this?

Monks do not sit at the same level as people. for instant, if a monk sit on a chair, you would sit on the floor and if a monk sit on the floor same as you, the monk has to have some elevated cushions. The monks also do not not leave the temple at night? I find it very strange that Admin had seen them at the swanky Bangkok restaurant. Remember, there are Thai monks (Hinayana) and other kind of monks which live in different rules like you see in Kungfu movie.

As far as i learn from the news all over the newspapers and on tv, gay-transgender in disguise of Monk-hood in some areas is far out of hand, in the northern provinces (Lampoon, as in the news), villagers and people living even knew this but do not bother.

So i am thinking, taking transgenders aside, men could become monks entering spiritual world, whatever their previous preferences were straight or gay, leaving it behind. Same as in military, flamboyant personality is surely the problem. People in religious setting should not be involved with sexuality, period.

Continue reading in thai

http://news.sanook.com/tag/%E0%B8%9E%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B0%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B0%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%A2/latest/2009/

I went to a temple in Copenhagen a few times and I've decided not to participate any activity when I get to know that the temple has "ladyboy-beauty contest" yearly. I have nothing against ladyboys but I don't agree with run a beauty contest at a temple.

Every year during Songkran Thai new year, we have these festive carnival, Ngan-Wat, miss Songkran beauty contest is one of them, they are usually held within the Temple areas all over in Thailand and usually reserved for all females, as we know, Thai people are tolerated and easily amused, Ladyboy/katoey beauty contest comes joining as one of the humor-factor entertainments. However, having said that, temples have always been the center of Thai communities. May be duplicating already existing norm does not portray good image of Thailand and it's people in foreign-lands?

[LakeGeneve]

What's the difference from a Monk having food or a drink on offering than a Police having a free feed extorted from owners through their job?

From what I have seen of Monks or any person receiving free isn't it human nature.

Monks practice against nature. I can't remember how many rules they have, something like over 200? and all of them are against nature. I think that's an idea of being a monk.

Just to be fair, we have good monks, bad monk and something in between, like every "professional".

In the OP article is says 227 precepts for monks which must be very hard given most humans have trouble with around 10!

Many years ago, I used to have an apartment in inner city Bangkok. The apartment tower was owned, and located next door to, a well known 'father' identity who ran a number of highly patronised casinos. Later, that whittled down to one casino and in the last few years he has had a few law enforcement issues to deal with. He is still very well known in inner city Bangkok (most of you will know who I am talking about).

Anyway, every week he would make a donation to monks from various Wats around the city. This would happen on a Tuesday morning at about 4-5am. About 50-80 monks would attend , line up and receive a few hundred baht from him & then head back to their Wat. This would occur every week so you do the numbers of how much money was involved. (I won't comment on the ethics of receiving money form a well known mafia figure).

Thus, each Monday night there would be upwards of 80 monks sleeping in the carpark outside the apartment and down the soi. Many a time I would come back late on a Monday and observe monks drinking whiskey or beer, smoking (very common) and looking at their lottery tickets (both govt. and illegal). I even spotted one old monk once looking at a magazine full of young girls. However, to be clear and fair although it was a constant it was never more than a few of the monks from what I saw.

Anyone, who has lived in Thailand has seen variations of the above, some monks not abiding by their precepts. Seems to be that a bit of "flamboyant behaviour of gay and transgender monks" is a lessor breach of the precepts if it is more about a little individual expression.

And compared to the seriousness of priests/monks sexually abusing kids or male monks tricking women into sex, then a little flamboyant behaviour is nothing.

[Oo.Cloud.oO]

today i was at the cafe and this monk with sunglasses and an Iphone was signing in and out of a few Hi5 and myspace accounts at the internet cafe

changes my perspective on "some" monks

i mean if they have air jordans on their feet and a blue tooth in there ear and there eating at Popeyes (who seemed to run out of chicken last week..... oh just youtube or google it and have a smile!)

then its pushin the limit

:wink:

[pandorea]

I would think that the owner of the restaurant "invited" those monks for some ceremony. If they were invited they can't turn the invitation down but they should "think" whether or not it's suitable place for a monk to be and they should have tell the host that they prefer to sit somewhere more private. BUT if they went there by themselves and ordered that darn orange juice (or perhaps paid with credit cards?) that is unacceptable. BUT again, who would dare to say anything?

A few nights ago, I went out to dinner with a few TF'ers to Vertigo, a very nice bar/restaurant on the top of the Banyan Tree hotel.

Halfway through our meal, we saw a couple of monks sitting a few tables away from us drinking juice. This was pretty surprising as this is a place where a glass of orange juice costs at least 200 baht.

Can any Thais/Buddhists shed some light on whether or not this is acceptable? What would you think if you were to see this?

Monks do not sit at the same level as people. for instant, if a monk sit on a chair, you would sit on the floor and if a monk sit on the floor same as you, the monk has to have some elevated cushions. The monks also do not not leave the temple at night? I find it very strange that Admin had seen them at the swanky Bangkok restaurant. Remember, there are Thai monks (Hinayana) and other kind of monks which live in different rules like you see in Kungfu movie.

As far as i learn from the news all over the newspapers and on tv, gay-transgender in disguise of Monk-hood in some areas is far out of hand, in the northern provinces (Lampoon, as in the news), villagers and people living even knew this but do not bother.

So i am thinking, taking transgenders aside, men could become monks entering spiritual world, whatever their previous preferences were straight or gay, leaving it behind. Same as in military, flamboyant personality is surely the problem. People in religious setting should not be involved with sexuality, period.

Continue reading in thai

http://news.sanook.com/tag/%E0%B8%9E%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B0%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B0%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%A2/latest/2009/

I went to a temple in Copenhagen a few times and I've decided not to participate any activity when I get to know that the temple has "ladyboy-beauty contest" yearly. I have nothing against ladyboys but I don't agree with run a beauty contest at a temple.

Every year during Songkran Thai new year, we have these festive carnival, Ngan-Wat, miss Songkran beauty contest is one of them, they are usually held within the Temple areas all over in Thailand and usually reserved for all females, as we know, Thai people are tolerated and easily amused, Ladyboy/katoey beauty contest comes joining as one of the humor-factor entertainments. However, having said that, temples have always been the center of Thai communities. May be duplicating already existing norm does not portray good image of Thailand and it's people in foreign-lands?

I can see your point and I know that's been going on for generations. The questions are, do those contests and festivals serve any perpose of Buddhism? what is exactly a temple for? and what is "good image of Thailand"?

I don't try to change what we have been doing for ages but if it makes me feel uncomfortable I stay away from it.

[Fujico]

today i was at the cafe and this monk with sunglasses and an Iphone was signing in and out of a few Hi5 and myspace accounts at the internet cafe

You could ask the guy 'Are you cosplaying as a monk?'

:roll:

[z123321MB]

Whatever that you all have seen monk on Hi5 or at Vertigo for dinner time as 227 precepts of the Bhikkhu?s rules. whatever they are doing, they must treat the precepts as a set,would not go down this path. The 227 precepts must maintain if so they are no more under kasawaphat (the yellow or orange robe) of Lord Buddha, have failed to be a monk.

Dharma it?s about natural if it?s unnatural then it?s another thing

[Neo]

Don't forget that many monks in Thailand never wanted to become a monk. They became monks through necessity. Perhaps their parents could no longer afford to feed them, or they are avoiding someone or something from their past, or it was the only way they could get a decent education. Some monks even resent being monks. It would be a big mistake to form an opinion of the Sangha from the actions of such people. The most devout monks are the ones you never see.

[LakeGeneve]

Interesting article on the issue by the weekly commentator of all things political and social Khun Vorani. Some good points for thought and debate.

However, I really don't understand the human right comment (which I have underlined). Is he saying that monks are not entitled to human rights protections and democratic norms, only "laymen" (sic)??? If so, does anyone else similarly believe that basic human rights standards and democractic norms are not applicable to monks?

Monks afflicted by 'gay expressions' By: Voranai Vanijaka 3/05/2009 Bangkok Post

Last Monday, I read a report on an etiquette course for novice monks. Introduced by leading preacher and writer Phra Wor Wachiramethi, the course aims to "prevent gay expressions" among monks. The course is deemed necessary, as there have been too many news reports of homosexual monks using cosmetics, carrying pink bags and wearing their robes in a stylish, fashionable way in public. Not to mention, monks actually having sexual relations with men in their monasteries. Gasp!

The course will be taught at the Triam Sammanen School - the country's first Buddhist missionary school, located in the compound of Wat Krueng Tai in Chiang Rai's Chiang Khong district. After falling off the chair, rolling on the ground gripped by hysterical laughter for about five minutes (who doesn't appreciate a good laugh on a Monday morning, eh?), I forgot about the story.

On Thursday night, I attended a concert/fashion show by Elle magazine, which is also owned by Post Publishing. (Who said this company is all stuffy, old and conservative, eh?) Needless to say, there were no shortages of "gay expressions" at the party. Though these expressions, it seemed to me, were that of fun and happiness, enjoyment, a zest for life.

Of course we must differentiate between "gay expressions" among laymen and among monks. The former is a matter of human rights, guaranteed by democratic principles. The latter however, hasn't anything to do with human rights or democracy.

The core principle of Buddhism is cessation of desire. Using cosmetics and carrying pink bags are fulfillments of desire, rather than cessations. Hence, it is wrong according to Buddhist principles. I am proudly a slave of many desires. I cannot have an Italian dinner without red wine. I screamed profanity when Manchester United scored five goals in 30 minutes to beat Tottenham Hotspur.

And like most men, if I were to pick up Elle, it's not necessarily to read the excellent articles, but to look at delicious models. Hence, I don't pretend to be a monk - and neither should those men who shaved their heads and wear yellow robes. I have no idea what could cure homosexual monks of "gay expressions". Will they chant and pray, burn incense until the gayness goes away? I don't know, but I'm sure the venerable monks will try their best.

If the venerable monks were to ask me for a solution, which of course they never would, but I have to write a Sunday column and the epic struggles of Thaksin Shinawatra is rather dry and stale this week, so let's pretend that I was asked. If they were to ask me, I would say the solution is simple: Can't extinguish the burning flame of desire? Defrock them. They don't deserve to be monks.

But you see, such solution would never be accepted, because it will open a big can of worms. If we start to defrock monks because they don't follow the principles of Buddhism and are enslaved by desires, then many temples will be emptier than the bottle of whiskey on my table at the end of the Elle party. Homosexuality has no more place in Buddhism than heterosexuality. Will preventing "straight expressions" be taught at Triam Sammanen School? After all, fair is fair, right?

I remember attending a service at a temple up in Chiang Mai. Monks chanted and devotees knelt in quiet reverence, hands clasped together in respect and worship. A mobile phone rang. A few of us lifted our heads to look around for the culprit. Sure enough, a monk pulled out his mobile phone and proceeded to have a brief conversation before returning to prayers. This was in front of more than 100 people.

Whenever I go to Pantip Plaza to get my notebook computer looked at, I always see groups of monks shopping. I have since come to the conclusion that many monasteries probably have a better home theatre system than I do, not to mention the latest PlayStation and Nintendo Wii games, as well as an impressive collection of DVDs.

Dear readers, have you yourself seen monks who are slaves of desires, in one way or another? Should they be defrocked? Or is it mai pen rai?

My family is provincial working class, from Korat - the land of Ya Mo. As with traditions, my father and uncles lived and studied at the temple when they were young. It was my father who said: "Living at a temple among the monks is the best way for a man to lose faith in religion." Thailand is a nation of many crises - economic, political, social and education, among others. How about we add a religious crisis to the list?

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/16080/monks-afflictedby-gay-expressions

[LakeGeneve]

A couple of interesting letters on the gay monk issue in last Sundays Post. I found the first letter more interesting given the conversion of the writer to Buddhism followed by his eye opening first trip to Thai temples.

POST BAG A forgiving place for monks Published: 10/05/2009

Thank you so much for your "funny" and interesting article about monks and desire (Voranai Vanijaka, May 3). It's not only funny but it shows an angle of Thai culture that we, foreigners, find both amazing and strange.

I became a Buddhist myself six years ago after reading and working the dhamma, and it changed my life in revolutionary ways. When I first came to Thailand, I travelled around the country and visited many temples in order to learn more about the Thai people, their customs, values and especially their practice of Buddhism.

I did not know whether to cry or laugh because so many things were confusing and not according to dhamma or the precepts, but still most common people had in their hearts the basic goodness that is required. Many monks smoke and drink and it is not considered wrong in any way, even though one of the five precepts talks specifically about not taking any mind-altering substances. Why that is considered okay in Thailand I have no idea.

When I go to a bar, party or restaurant and people ask me why I do not drink and I answer that it is because I am a Buddhist, they seem not to understand what I am saying and just smile. The practice of Buddhism is different in all the Asian countries, but I think Thailand is one of the most ''forgiving'' countries when it comes to breaking the precepts and acting according to the dhamma.

Maybe that is because of the low standards of behaviour of some of the monks in Thailand?

Gunnar

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LIVING WITH MATERIAL MONKS

The question posed in his column last week by Voranai, ''Dear readers, have you yourself seen monks who are slaves of desire, in one way or another?'' brings to mind several occasions.

On my trip this past week to Luang Prabang, Laos, we were delayed by a car (with Thai licence plates) that went off the mountain road and had to be pulled up by two tow trucks. A group of monks was among the 50 travellers delayed. Fortunately the people inside were taken out earlier with slight injuries and taken to a local hospital in Laos. Among the many people taking photographs of the scene were monks. I commented to my friend that one of them had the same new top-of-the-line Nikon camera my brother has.

When I was shopping last December at the Lat Phrao branch of Carrefour, I wanted to pick up a pack of computer paper. Going through the Christmas displays to get to the stationery section, whom should I find perusing the Christmas displays but some monks. In the checkout line, I saw several were purchasing Christmas decorations.

I have to admit I lean more towards atheism, so I wasn't offended in any religious way over this, but was only very surprised. The monks had also purchased many magazines. I could not see the titles, but I am sure Carrefour does not carry Temple News, Wat Digest or Buddhist Weekly. I also see monks with MP3 players on the MRT and skytrain.

Apparently, as long as the monks don't show expressions of ''gayness'' in their material desires in Thailand, they are not to be denied the latest technology and other earthly indulgences.

Laurie

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/16440/a-forgiving-place-for-monks

[Mister Moobs]

Don't forget that many monks in Thailand never wanted to become a monk. They became monks through necessity. Perhaps their parents could no longer afford to feed them, or they are avoiding someone or something from their past, or it was the only way they could get a decent education. Some monks even resent being monks. It would be a big mistake to form an opinion of the Sangha from the actions of such people. The most devout monks are the ones you never see.

two thumbs up :!:

Unfortunately, it's the same with all of the religions. We rarely hear of the good Imams or Priests or Bishops, Monks, etc.

[Stramash]

read a quote in a book which seemed to sum the monks up quite well;

"Some are hiding, some are weeping, some are frustrated, some are ambitious, some are gay, most are devout, and some are almost Buddhas"

[Mister Moobs]

Abandon negative action

Create perfect virtue

Subdue your own mind

This is the teaching of the Buddha