Swiss ban new mosque minaret construction

[CiaranM]

the vote was not against mosques - swiss population voted against the minarets ! In my eyes islam is running a very subtle yet intelligent campaign over here in western Europe - chapeau..

Switzerland ist the country with the highest percentage of working foreigners. It needs to be stressed again - foreigners having a steady job in Switzerland. In comparison Germany is having quite a big number of unemployed workers, amongst those is a large number of unemployed muslims in second or even third generation.

Switzerland is having this most direct form of democracy and hell, this is democracy and this decision should be respected and ought to be out of question. If there was the same poll in Germany (and there is a high and increasing number of mosques and minarets, too) I bet that it would turn out the same. Christians are supressed in any arabic country, while crime rate of young islamic ethnic minorities in western european countries is a proven fact and constantly rising.

The results are quite the same in both countries. Integration does not really work. Because of my job I visit most of the secondary (meanwhile problem schools) school in my home town. Can you imagine that there are migrant families in 2nd or 3rd generation where the parents do not speak a single word of german ? Their kids are born on a losing street and give a damn about it. What the heck are they wanting from a country they dont love ? How can they expect the population to like them ? I dont want to become a stranger in my own country but parts of the cities are in the hands of ethnic minorities at night and all those morons demanding even more rights for minorities should shut the f**k up and open their eyes to reality.

In the last few months there were murders during daytime in tube and train stations commiited by ethnic minorities, there were mosques closed by german authoriities as their religious leaders were secretly calling for djihad. In the afternoon they tell the school pupil to forget what they have been told by their german teachers in the morning.

A lot of djihad fighters had their primary religious education in the afternoon schools and then went to the terror camps in Pakistan.

All those bleeding heart liberals should start to open their eyes to the reality. Integration deals with intelligence - we are trying hard to teach their kids our way of living, our western culture to let them become good integrated members of our society but some mindless bastards with their 16th century opinion still have total mind control by means of religion.

FFS .... take a good hard look at ur own fairly recent history before u post bollocks like this !!!!!!!

[CiaranM]

and to go slightly off topic ... after the publication in ireland of the report into the sexual abuse of children by priests ... i'd be in favour of all churches there been burnt to the f**king ground !!!!

Bit of an overeaction isn't it, let's just burn all the Roman Catholic churches :wink:

this is no time for half measures .... burn them f**king all !!!! :wink:

[beej]

Places of religious worship and significance should be allowed to be built without question.

If it was a church no one would give two shits.

This petty small minded media fueled right wing argument will only make things worse. I hate to think of the damage already done by these groups to vilify Muslims and people of Arab/African/Indian descent.

No wonder they separate themselves from the ignorance of the natives.

[English_Bob]

I was just PM'd a couple of links to interesting sites... by an interesting ex-member of TF.

http://hereticdhammasangha.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/swiss-vote-bans-muslim-minarets/

And then this guy just makes me laugh.... I mean, tolerance? Understanding? Reasoning? This 'learned scholar' is a simpleton!

http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/31324-non-muslims-will-not-have-equal-humanrights-zakir-naik.html

[beej]

Moobsie's missing the battle huh...

Two wrongs don't make a right do they, the West should lead by example.

This link http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/31324-non-muslims-will-not-have-equal-humanrights-zakir-naik.html

is no worse than this link....

www.stormfront.org

Only the second link has 100,000 ++ members... and the first just has a handful.

[beej]

All are extremists who are help up by either side to gather either support or hatred.

Y A W N

[eagle]

All are extremists who are help up by either side to gather either support or hatred.

Y A W N

There's much more education and awareness in modern times despite the extremists and those who try to exploit them. More and more people either leave religious groups or join modern alternatives to the mainstream. Man is after all barely out of the stone age despite his arrogance.

[I_am_George]

I wonder how many Christian churches there are in Saudi Arabia?

There are a few hidden away :wink:

Yes there are quite a few but theyre 'underground'. Theyre not really churches per say but normal buldings that christians have their church rituals in on a sundays.

Youre probably right in most cases but the place I was in for the Rememberence Day service a couple of weeks ago definately looked like a church.....or maybe the wine just made me think that :shock:

yes..Only private worship, or a compound designates one of its villas as a church, and if you notice the Villa churches, you will see mostly people from the Philippine community or Christian Arabs...

Ahhh I think we'll need to agree to differ on that one........

I did not see any Filipinos or Arabs in the church on Rememberence Day, and it wasnt in a designated compound villa church either. What I did see was 100% westerners, mostly from UK and some dressed in military uniform but I accept this is pretty much a one off, once a year thing, and not your normal weekly church service........

[Damnam1]

the vote was not against mosques - swiss population voted against the minarets ! In my eyes islam is running a very subtle yet intelligent campaign over here in western Europe - chapeau..

Switzerland ist the country with the highest percentage of working foreigners. It needs to be stressed again - foreigners having a steady job in Switzerland. In comparison Germany is having quite a big number of unemployed workers, amongst those is a large number of unemployed muslims in second or even third generation.

Switzerland is having this most direct form of democracy and hell, this is democracy and this decision should be respected and ought to be out of question. If there was the same poll in Germany (and there is a high and increasing number of mosques and minarets, too) I bet that it would turn out the same. Christians are supressed in any arabic country, while crime rate of young islamic ethnic minorities in western european countries is a proven fact and constantly rising.

The results are quite the same in both countries. Integration does not really work. Because of my job I visit most of the secondary (meanwhile problem schools) school in my home town. Can you imagine that there are migrant families in 2nd or 3rd generation where the parents do not speak a single word of german ? Their kids are born on a losing street and give a damn about it. What the heck are they wanting from a country they dont love ? How can they expect the population to like them ? I dont want to become a stranger in my own country but parts of the cities are in the hands of ethnic minorities at night and all those morons demanding even more rights for minorities should shut the f**k up and open their eyes to reality.

In the last few months there were murders during daytime in tube and train stations commiited by ethnic minorities, there were mosques closed by german authoriities as their religious leaders were secretly calling for djihad. In the afternoon they tell the school pupil to forget what they have been told by their german teachers in the morning.

A lot of djihad fighters had their primary religious education in the afternoon schools and then went to the terror camps in Pakistan.

All those bleeding heart liberals should start to open their eyes to the reality. Integration deals with intelligence - we are trying hard to teach their kids our way of living, our western culture to let them become good integrated members of our society but some mindless bastards with their 16th century opinion still have total mind control by means of religion.

FFS .... take a good hard look at ur own fairly recent history before u post bollocks like this !!!!!!!

I knew that you would write that kind of bullshit. you lost your mind because of too much booze.You better go and wash your hands before you write your typical one sentence crap..

[CiaranM]

the vote was not against mosques - swiss population voted against the minarets ! In my eyes islam is running a very subtle yet intelligent campaign over here in western Europe - chapeau..

Switzerland ist the country with the highest percentage of working foreigners. It needs to be stressed again - foreigners having a steady job in Switzerland. In comparison Germany is having quite a big number of unemployed workers, amongst those is a large number of unemployed muslims in second or even third generation.

Switzerland is having this most direct form of democracy and hell, this is democracy and this decision should be respected and ought to be out of question. If there was the same poll in Germany (and there is a high and increasing number of mosques and minarets, too) I bet that it would turn out the same. Christians are supressed in any arabic country, while crime rate of young islamic ethnic minorities in western european countries is a proven fact and constantly rising.

The results are quite the same in both countries. Integration does not really work. Because of my job I visit most of the secondary (meanwhile problem schools) school in my home town. Can you imagine that there are migrant families in 2nd or 3rd generation where the parents do not speak a single word of german ? Their kids are born on a losing street and give a damn about it. What the heck are they wanting from a country they dont love ? How can they expect the population to like them ? I dont want to become a stranger in my own country but parts of the cities are in the hands of ethnic minorities at night and all those morons demanding even more rights for minorities should shut the f**k up and open their eyes to reality.

In the last few months there were murders during daytime in tube and train stations commiited by ethnic minorities, there were mosques closed by german authoriities as their religious leaders were secretly calling for djihad. In the afternoon they tell the school pupil to forget what they have been told by their german teachers in the morning.

A lot of djihad fighters had their primary religious education in the afternoon schools and then went to the terror camps in Pakistan.

All those bleeding heart liberals should start to open their eyes to the reality. Integration deals with intelligence - we are trying hard to teach their kids our way of living, our western culture to let them become good integrated members of our society but some mindless bastards with their 16th century opinion still have total mind control by means of religion.

FFS .... take a good hard look at ur own fairly recent history before u post bollocks like this !!!!!!!

I knew that you would write that kind of bullshit. you lost your mind because of too much booze.You better go and wash your hands before you write your typical one sentence crap..

so i've lost my mind because of booze .... now what's ur excuse for being a racist bigot !!! :roll: :roll:

[Damnam1]

the vote was not against mosques - swiss population voted against the minarets ! In my eyes islam is running a very subtle yet intelligent campaign over here in western Europe - chapeau..

Switzerland ist the country with the highest percentage of working foreigners. It needs to be stressed again - foreigners having a steady job in Switzerland. In comparison Germany is having quite a big number of unemployed workers, amongst those is a large number of unemployed muslims in second or even third generation.

Switzerland is having this most direct form of democracy and hell, this is democracy and this decision should be respected and ought to be out of question. If there was the same poll in Germany (and there is a high and increasing number of mosques and minarets, too) I bet that it would turn out the same. Christians are supressed in any arabic country, while crime rate of young islamic ethnic minorities in western european countries is a proven fact and constantly rising.

The results are quite the same in both countries. Integration does not really work. Because of my job I visit most of the secondary (meanwhile problem schools) school in my home town. Can you imagine that there are migrant families in 2nd or 3rd generation where the parents do not speak a single word of german ? Their kids are born on a losing street and give a damn about it. What the heck are they wanting from a country they dont love ? How can they expect the population to like them ? I dont want to become a stranger in my own country but parts of the cities are in the hands of ethnic minorities at night and all those morons demanding even more rights for minorities should shut the f**k up and open their eyes to reality.

In the last few months there were murders during daytime in tube and train stations commiited by ethnic minorities, there were mosques closed by german authoriities as their religious leaders were secretly calling for djihad. In the afternoon they tell the school pupil to forget what they have been told by their german teachers in the morning.

A lot of djihad fighters had their primary religious education in the afternoon schools and then went to the terror camps in Pakistan.

All those bleeding heart liberals should start to open their eyes to the reality. Integration deals with intelligence - we are trying hard to teach their kids our way of living, our western culture to let them become good integrated members of our society but some mindless bastards with their 16th century opinion still have total mind control by means of religion.

FFS .... take a good hard look at ur own fairly recent history before u post bollocks like this !!!!!!!

I knew that you would write that kind of bullshit. you lost your mind because of too much booze.You better go and wash your hands before you write your typical one sentence crap..

so i've lost my mind because of booze .... now what's ur excuse for being a racist bigot !!! :roll: :roll:

dont need any cheap excuses - in comparison to you I am usually sober when I post on TF and I dont need an censoring Irishman constantly reminding me of my history..take a look at your own past. You still have walls where you are from..

[beej]

I'd rather speak to a drunken open minded man, than a bigoted sober one any day.

[CiaranM]

the vote was not against mosques - swiss population voted against the minarets ! In my eyes islam is running a very subtle yet intelligent campaign over here in western Europe - chapeau..

Switzerland ist the country with the highest percentage of working foreigners. It needs to be stressed again - foreigners having a steady job in Switzerland. In comparison Germany is having quite a big number of unemployed workers, amongst those is a large number of unemployed muslims in second or even third generation.

Switzerland is having this most direct form of democracy and hell, this is democracy and this decision should be respected and ought to be out of question. If there was the same poll in Germany (and there is a high and increasing number of mosques and minarets, too) I bet that it would turn out the same. Christians are supressed in any arabic country, while crime rate of young islamic ethnic minorities in western european countries is a proven fact and constantly rising.

The results are quite the same in both countries. Integration does not really work. Because of my job I visit most of the secondary (meanwhile problem schools) school in my home town. Can you imagine that there are migrant families in 2nd or 3rd generation where the parents do not speak a single word of german ? Their kids are born on a losing street and give a damn about it. What the heck are they wanting from a country they dont love ? How can they expect the population to like them ? I dont want to become a stranger in my own country but parts of the cities are in the hands of ethnic minorities at night and all those morons demanding even more rights for minorities should shut the f**k up and open their eyes to reality.

In the last few months there were murders during daytime in tube and train stations commiited by ethnic minorities, there were mosques closed by german authoriities as their religious leaders were secretly calling for djihad. In the afternoon they tell the school pupil to forget what they have been told by their german teachers in the morning.

A lot of djihad fighters had their primary religious education in the afternoon schools and then went to the terror camps in Pakistan.

All those bleeding heart liberals should start to open their eyes to the reality. Integration deals with intelligence - we are trying hard to teach their kids our way of living, our western culture to let them become good integrated members of our society but some mindless bastards with their 16th century opinion still have total mind control by means of religion.

FFS .... take a good hard look at ur own fairly recent history before u post bollocks like this !!!!!!!

I knew that you would write that kind of bullshit. you lost your mind because of too much booze.You better go and wash your hands before you write your typical one sentence crap..

so i've lost my mind because of booze .... now what's ur excuse for being a racist bigot !!! :roll: :roll:

dont need any cheap excuses - in comparison to you I am usually sober when I post on TF and I dont need an censoring Irishman constantly reminding me of my history..take a look at your own past. You still have walls where you are from..

so u r a sober racist bigot ... well bully for U !!!

and it's exactly because of ppl with UR kind of mindset that we have walls where i come from !!!

[Damnam1]

I bet german engineers build that wall, so it will last quite a time..

Let us continue our sober racist bigot discussion next February. First mineral water will be on me :wink:

[LakeGeneve]

I'd rather speak to a drunken open minded man, than a bigoted sober one any day.

:cheers: :drunk: :cheers:

[SweetieBabie]

I'd rather speak to a drunken open minded man, than a bigoted sober one any day.

:cheers: :drunk: :cheers:

Quote of the day!

[beej]

I'd rather speak to a drunken open minded man, than a bigoted sober one any day.

:cheers: :drunk: :cheers:

Quote of the day!

Nope, quote of the day is....

''Show me your **** and I'll give you a biscuit''.

[LakeGeneve]

the vote was not against mosques - swiss population voted against the minarets ! In my eyes islam is running a very subtle yet intelligent campaign over here in western Europe - chapeau..

Switzerland ist the country with the highest percentage of working foreigners. It needs to be stressed again - foreigners having a steady job in Switzerland. In comparison Germany is having quite a big number of unemployed workers, amongst those is a large number of unemployed muslims in second or even third generation.

Switzerland is having this most direct form of democracy and hell, this is democracy and this decision should be respected and ought to be out of question. If there was the same poll in Germany (and there is a high and increasing number of mosques and minarets, too) I bet that it would turn out the same. Christians are supressed in any arabic country, while crime rate of young islamic ethnic minorities in western european countries is a proven fact and constantly rising.

The results are quite the same in both countries. Integration does not really work. Because of my job I visit most of the secondary (meanwhile problem schools) school in my home town. Can you imagine that there are migrant families in 2nd or 3rd generation where the parents do not speak a single word of german ? Their kids are born on a losing street and give a damn about it. What the heck are they wanting from a country they dont love ? How can they expect the population to like them ? I dont want to become a stranger in my own country but parts of the cities are in the hands of ethnic minorities at night and all those morons demanding even more rights for minorities should shut the f**k up and open their eyes to reality.

In the last few months there were murders during daytime in tube and train stations commiited by ethnic minorities, there were mosques closed by german authoriities as their religious leaders were secretly calling for djihad. In the afternoon they tell the school pupil to forget what they have been told by their german teachers in the morning.

A lot of djihad fighters had their primary religious education in the afternoon schools and then went to the terror camps in Pakistan.

All those bleeding heart liberals should start to open their eyes to the reality. Integration deals with intelligence - we are trying hard to teach their kids our way of living, our western culture to let them become good integrated members of our society but some mindless bastards with their 16th century opinion still have total mind control by means of religion.

FFS .... take a good hard look at ur own fairly recent history before u post bollocks like this !!!!!!!

I knew that you would write that kind of bullshit. you lost your mind because of too much booze.You better go and wash your hands before you write your typical one sentence crap..

Reading this reminds me of some of the historical political writings that I have read from the mid 30s in your country. One would think that being German you might actually try to substantiate some of your concerns, valid or not, with some actual statistics of facts.

Instead, it makes about as much sense as a thai suggesting that all Germans should be banned from coming to Thailand due to perceptions that there are many middle aged male Germans have sex with children in this country. If some thais asserted this proposal then how would that make you feel given that you seem to be a middle aged German male? It wouldn't make much sense would it and if you could objectively read your post much of what you write is in the same vein.

Crime rates are something which can be measured, not always compared between jurisdictions, and quantified if the data is collected and interpreted in a non-biased manner. Thus, I would be genuinely interested to know which countries you refer to when you write, "in western european countries is a proven fact and constantly rising". It may well be true in some places, it may not in others, I have no idea but is your statement based on fact or illusions?

Similarly, you express a fear that "I dont want to become a stranger in my own country but parts of the cities are in the hands of ethnic minorities at night". Exactly, what is the % of migrants in Germany and what is the % of muslims in germany. Also, can you mention some specific areas of German cities that are "in the hands of ethnic minorities at night"? I have not lived in Germany but have visited a number of cities and have many friends from your wonderful country so I am genuinely interested to know where and what specifics your statement is based on.

On the 2nd/3rd generation not speaking the local language point, I can indeed imagine it. As examples in Australia, we had a large program of post war immigration from Italy and Greece. Their children were often labelled thieves, people spoke of ghettos and a large number of parents did not learn english. Then in the 70s, we had migration from SE asia, primarily Vietnamese refugees. Some of the children were considered to be criminals, people spoke of ghettos of vietnamese in the large cities and still today some parents do not speak much english. Then we had Lebanese in the 80s. Some people thought that the kids were criminals, the would be ghettos and mistakenly thought they were all muslims. Then we had various groups from the fromer Yugoslavia. Again, lots of talk of criminals and ghettos and problems. More recently Somalis and then Sudanese. More visible groups and surprise, surprise yet again sensational stories of criminal elements and language issues.

When I grew up in the 80s it was very common for 2nd or 3rd generation Italian or Greek children to encounter problems with their parents or grandparents conservative values as they still had a reference point in their own country of the 50s. This is an important point I think as culture changes and each generation of migrants, as non-migrants also do, changes

I can't speak for Germany. But the pattern in general and broad Australia (most likely Canada and the USA to a degree as well) is that there are waves of migrants. All of whom are initially distrusted by the dominant group, thought to more prone to engaging in crime and not 'mixing' with the 'dominant' culture of their new country. Yes each wave of migrants has had transition problems - traumatised refugees have usually experienced horrors that most will never see - and of course some commit crimes and some still don't understand the game of cricket!

Yet the reality is most migrants waves have settled well, contributed to their new country and their children by the 2nd or 3rd generation are as kids everywhere in the country if one can get beyond being obsessed by the colour of their skin or religion. I love the fact that I come from diverse multi-cultural country with a mix of cuisine, traditions, cultures and diverse attitudes. That is not to say everything is wonderful for all as discrimination prevails, there are extremist views in some places and for some they cannot get their favourite KFC food at the nearest take away (refer to the Immigration thread for this in joke).

Looking forward to your answers to the queries, thanks.

[Damnam1]

Hello,

I will get back to this in the evening. Here is the latest statistics of the BKA:

http://www.bpb.de/publikationen/HTD7VE,0,Ausl%E4nderkriminalit%E4t.html

the gist of it says

.... that even in an adjusted statistic, which divides between different groups of status, young foreigners (note - resident in Germany,not living or coming from abroad for touristic or whatsoever reasons - only foreigners permanently living in Germany) especially the group of 14 to 17 year old commits significantly more crime (property crime and assault/GBH) than their german counterparts. The reasons for this are financial problems, lack of integration, insufficient skills of german language and lack of chances on the labour market...

Those are official government sources - this aint right - wing publicity. See you later again.

Cheers

Ray

[Neo]

The solution is simple...

kill all the foreigners

but don't stop there

get to the root of the problem

kill them before they leave their foreign countries

now if every country had that policy there'd be no problem

simple

8)

[LakeGeneve]

Hello,

I will get back to this in the evening. Here is the latest statistics of the BKA:

http://www.bpb.de/publikationen/HTD7VE,0,Ausl%E4nderkriminalit%E4t.html

the gist of it says

.... that even in an adjusted statistic, which divides between different groups of status, young foreigners (note - resident in Germany,not living or coming from abroad for touristic or whatsoever reasons - only foreigners permanently living in Germany) especially the group of 14 to 17 year old commits significantly more crime (property crime and assault/GBH) than their german counterparts. The reasons for this are financial problems, lack of integration, insufficient skills of german language and lack of chances on the labour market...

Those are official government sources - this aint right - wing publicity. See you later again.

Cheers

Ray

Thanks Ray, I do appreciate some actual info. I understand I have asked a few queries so just post what you can when you have the time.

Crimes stats are complex and can be interpreted in many ways. Terms and definitions are even more fraught with danger especially in a cross jurisdictional and translation context if not clearly understood.

I note that the terms 'foreigners' and 'germans' are used in the above translation (Thanks for that BTW) which I am guessing means someone born overseas or a non PR (permanent resident) v someone born in germany or a PR. BUT I don't see the term muslim. Unless it should be obvious to me that an overwhemlingly large number of those defined as 'foreigners' are muslim migrants???

I am going to use google translate to try to understand what is written and look at some of the data.

[Damnam1]

Hi Nicky,

some more facts coming from governmental sources:

note: it is quite hard to find sources you can trust that show the exact percentage of muslims, but I am still working in this - in the meantime I feed some more official stats:

condemned offenders (all kind of crimes) 1998 : 791.549 - hereof 206.406 residents with foreign origin which is a percentage of 26,1 %

http://www.auslaender-statistik.de/bund/verurt.htm

overall statistic of all different nationalities in Germany 2006:

http://www.auslaender-statistik.de/bund/nati_1.htm

Presumed that the majority of turkish, maroccan,libanese, iraqi, afghani, albanian and algerian suspected offenders are muslim, and a good part of bosnian, croatian and former Yugoslavia are muslim too you will come to the conclusion that after those official 1999 stats:

http://www.auslaender-statistik.de/bund/tatver_5.htm

more than 50 % of the suspects were muslims. An from what I know the situation hasnt changed ten years later. In the field of drug crime the number has increased.

About 7 million foreigners live as residents in Germany (2006 ), 26 % herof coming from Turkey (presumed muslims, only very few asylum seekers from Tureky such as Yezidi and of christian belief).

In Switzerland (2006) there are 1.523.586 resident foreigners, i.e. 20,4 % which is significantly more than any other european country. This fact is very interesting, as almost 60 % of the foreigner in Switzerland ar coming from the EU - countries. End of 2006 there were only 4,8 % (4,8 % = 73.861) from Turkey.

So there almost two milion turkish people (not to speak of any other muslim nations) living in Germany. There are 73.861 turkish living in Switzerland. The trukish are the biggest muslim group in Switzerland. Now we may ask, how come that Siwtzerland is reacting in such a way( I mean the poll), although there are way less let us turkish muslims than in Germany ?

In 2008 there were more than 90.000 condemned offenders in Switzerland, herof more than 50 % 51,2 %) committed by foreigners (but swiss stats - in comparison to german stats - do not differ between permanent residents and for example tourists comitting crimes in Switzerland - so the stats would significantly differ and the number would be way lower than 51,4 %) nevertheless here is the official swiss stats:

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/themen/19/03/03/key/ueberblick/wichtigste_zahlen.html

Okay so much for the moment- guess with these numbers enable us understand the swiss vote, although I still have to give more details on the percentage of muslim suspects and offenders. Not mentioned yet is the number of religious motivated crime and crimes with terroristic background. This is another issue.

Hear from you later.

Cheers

Ray

[LakeGeneve]

Hi Nicky,

Umm, you can call me LG if your replying to my request. Nicky is a wonderful mod with a good eye using a camera and some very creative design talents. Both of which I lack. :oops:

some more facts coming from governmental sources:

note: it is quite hard to find sources you can trust that show the exact percentage of muslims, but I am still working in this - in the meantime I feed some more official stats:

condemned offenders (all kind of crimes) 1998 : 791.549 - hereof 206.406 residents with foreign origin which is a percentage of 26,1 %

http://www.auslaender-statistik.de/bund/verurt.htm

In your original post you referred to your current perceptions of Germany. Using stats that are 10 yrs old is about as useful as me describing the current German economy by using data from 10 yrs ago. Crime stats change as does economic data. It may be useful for a comparative analysis but not to support your claims.

overall statistic of all different nationalities in Germany 2006:

http://www.auslaender-statistik.de/bund/nati_1.htm

Presumed that the majority of turkish, maroccan,libanese, iraqi, afghani, albanian and algerian suspected offenders are muslim, and a good part of bosnian, croatian and former Yugoslavia are muslim too you will come to the conclusion that after those official 1999 stats:

This is a little more useful as it is from 2006 but it does not have an overall context nor specific definition of what the figures are, what is the unit of measurement? Is it reported crimes? Arrests? Judicial cases? Convictions? Incarcerations rates? As I stated earlier throwing up mere undefined figures without a context does not help much.

My google translation of "Ausländer nach Staatsangehörigkeiten" gives 'Aliens by nationality'. Thus, am I to conclude that this data is in relation to foreigners, 'aliens', who do not have residency in Germany? Or does it mean foreign born residents?

Regardless of the above and taking note that this table does not refer to the overall absolute total of crimes in Germany in 2006 so we don't know what the percentage of 'alien crime' compared with the total numbers; (is it 5%, 20%, 50%?????), then I just only over 30% attributable to foreigners most likely to be muslim given their country of origin (Turkey, Iraq, Bosnia & Morocco).

I don't agree that with you that the majority of Croatian and Serbian-Montenegro are muslim. Clearly that is not the case. This whole excercise is dodgy given there are no stats of offenders religion. And there are a whole range of issues we are not discussing such as over policing in some areas, disproportionate targetting of some groups and the fact that some migrant groups can also be larger victims of some crimes compared to the rest of the community.

However, for the sake of this simple process I am confortable with the figures from those 4 countries I have listed as there will be as many non-muslims from those 4 countries as there may be muslims from other countries listed.

Thus, we get 30.02% which is no where near a majority and again on figures that don't really enlighten us as to exactly what they are or what they mean and have no overall, absolute figure for a comparison. Even if I was very generous and gave you 40% muslim offenders for the foreigners stats your not going to get anywhere near a majority figure as you claimed once the overall stats are include. Unless your going to claim that non-immigrant germans don't commit any crimes!

http://www.auslaender-statistik.de/bund/tatver_5.htm

more than 50 % of the suspects were muslims. An from what I know the situation hasnt changed ten years later. In the field of drug crime the number has increased.

Again, these are figures from 1999/2000 and my translation says they are suspects! And even a cursory glance of whatever these figures are shows that your talking out of your arse to suggest that over 50% of the suspects were muslims. You cannot state that with certainty, even adding up the 'muslim countries' figures does not make 50%.

And it is completely and totally incorrect and false to state, "from what I know the situation hasnt changed ten years later." No where in the world do crime stats remain static or the percentages of offender profiles remain the same even from one year to the next let alone after a decade! Really your given an opportunity to back up your claims and you comes up with even more unsubstantiated claims.

I am not saying that your assertions are wrong or that muslims in germany don't commit crimes. And maybe some specific groups commit crimes disproptionately to their numbers. But you have given no contemporary, specific and insighful data which may even come close to supporting your claims.

About 7 million foreigners live as residents in Germany (2006 ), 26 % herof coming from Turkey (presumed muslims, only very few asylum seekers from Tureky such as Yezidi and of christian belief).

So 7 m foreign born are residents in Germany, ie. Germans, and just over a quarter , 1.8 million Germans are of Turkish descent. If the pop of Germany was about 80m in 2006 that means that less than 12% are foreign born.

In Switzerland (2006) there are 1.523.586 resident foreigners, i.e. 20,4 % which is significantly more than any other european country. This fact is very interesting, as almost 60 % of the foreigner in Switzerland ar coming from the EU - countries. End of 2006 there were only 4,8 % (4,8 % = 73.861) from Turkey.

So there almost two milion turkish people (not to speak of any other muslim nations) living in Germany. There are 73.861 turkish living in Switzerland. The trukish are the biggest muslim group in Switzerland. Now we may ask, how come that Siwtzerland is reacting in such a way( I mean the poll), although there are way less let us turkish muslims than in Germany ?

In 2008 there were more than 90.000 condemned offenders in Switzerland, herof more than 50 % 51,2 %) committed by foreigners (but swiss stats - in comparison to german stats - do not differ between permanent residents and for example tourists comitting crimes in Switzerland - so the stats would significantly differ and the number would be way lower than 51,4 %) nevertheless here is the official swiss stats:

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/themen/19/03/03/key/ueberblick/wichtigste_zahlen.html

Mmmm, I don't know why either but nothing in the swiss stats indicates the criminal activity of Turks or muslims so your streaching your causal connection with inference to such a flimsy point as to make yourself seem very prejudiced.

I note the 2008 Swiss adult conviction rates state that 51.2% of offenders are foreigners. But there is no further breakdown to indicate residency, country of origin, nor religion. The prison pop for the end of 2008 is given as 5,780 with a very high figure of 69.7% being foreigners. However, nearly half of the prison pop is either in pre-trial detention, detention for explusion/extradition or protective custody. The later 2 being nearly 10% of the prison pop may explain to a small extent the high foreigner figure? However, with no further breakdown of the figures it is really only a guessing game and not helpful for this discussion.

Okay so much for the moment- guess with these numbers enable us understand the swiss vote, although I still have to give more details on the percentage of muslim suspects and offenders. Not mentioned yet is the number of religious motivated crime and crimes with terroristic background. This is another issue.

Hear from you later.

Cheers

Ray

I suspect that the 'religious motivated crime and terrorist crimes' will have a significant number of white, neo-nazis in the figures?

I do appreciate your efforts haphazard and so far failed efforts at finding some crime stats which may support your perceptions and views. Most people would not even try to back up their claims with come good data so the fact that you have is a plus. But nothing here thus far has clearly and factually supported your earlier statements regarding criminal activity by muslims in germany. I did query if you could advise of the cities and areas you refer too which are controlled by enthic gangs.

It may also be useful to be specific as to who your talking about if your going to make such claims as you used the term "muslims" in one para and then the term "arabic" in another para. Yet Iranians, Afghans and Turks are not arabs and the country with the largest number of muslims is in SE Asia not the middle east.

Your views appear to be based more prejudice than fact but you live in Germany and I don't. It is easy to see 'outsiders'. though in this case we are talking Germans, and the more visible when it comes to crime and they are always in almost any context an easy target for the majority to seek blame. Just look at the how many Thais view Burmese migrant workers in their country. :roll:

An example of comprehensive annual criminal stats in the Australian jurisdiction (2008), with a good explanation of the problems in using criminal stats esp between jurisdictions.

Have a read of this historical (1999), brief discussion paper on Ethnicity and Crime to see if some of the complex issues involved in measuring crime by enthicity sound relevent for Germany.

[Stramash]

Hi Nicky,

Umm, you can call me LG if your replying to my request. Nicky is a wonderful mod with a good eye using a camera and some very creative design talents. Both of which I lack. :oops:

though you wear the same dress size... :wink:

[Stramash]

and to go slightly off topic ... after the publication in ireland of the report into the sexual abuse of children by priests ... i'd be in favour of all churches there been burnt to the f**king ground !!!!

But aren't paedophile priests a minority group, whose rights to abuse children need protecting?

nope .... u don't protect the rights of ppl who decide to break the law !!!

however, there has obviously in the past been unfair/outdated laws and in a functioning democracy these should be repealed amended !!! although hopefully they will never make it legal for priests to sexually abuse kids !!!

Recently a Christian priest commented on those who have been sexually abused by other priests and by stating that they "should get over it".

Personally, I believe he is right.

Jesus was nailed to the cross over two thousand years ago and you don't see people harping on about it now, do you?