Bangkok Mar 12-14

[Crustyjuggler]

There are actually some very real issues at the root of this.

Maybe, but i wonder how many reds refused the payoff and come to bangkok and voice that particular reason out of their own good will..

[beej]

If the Red shirts had protested peacefully, in a non violent, non armed, non confrontational manner, the world would be on their side.

Instead, they were violent, armed, and breaking the law every time they could.

I'm please to see that the government and the military can work together for once.

No one should die for another mans wealth.

[SweetieBabie]

15 deads ( 4 soldiers, 11 civilians )

678 injured

Red **** went and snatched dead corpse from Hua Chiew hospital to display on their stage at Panfa lilat bridge. - sick.

[English_Bob]

From May85's journal... as pertinent today as it was then.

Message to all Thais

“...»ÃÃà·È¢Ã§àÃÒ äÃèãªè»ÃÃà·È¢Ã§Ë¹Ö觤¹ Ê礹 à»ç¹»ÃÃà·È¢Ã§·Ø¡¤¹ µéçà¢éÒËҡѹ äÃè༪ԭ˹éҡѹ á¡é»Ñ­ËÒ à¾ÃÒÃÇèÒÃѹµÃÒÂÃÕÃÂÙè àÇÅÒ¤¹àÃÒà¡Ô´¤ÇÒúéÒàÅ×ô»¯ÔºÑµÔ¡ÒÃÃعáçµèáѹ ÃѹÅ×Ã楀 ŧ·éÒ¡çäÃèÃÙéÇèҵաѹà¾ÃÒÃÃÃäà áÅéÇ¡ç¨Ãá¡é»Ñ­ËÒÃÃäà à¾Õ§áµèÇèÒ ¨ÃµéçàÃÒª¹à áÅéÇ¡çã¤Ã¨Ãª¹à äÃèÃÕ·Ò§ª¹à ÃѹµÃÒ·Ñ駹Ñé¹ ÃÕáµèá¾é ¤×õèÒ§¤¹µèÒ§á¾é ¼Ùé·Õè༪ԭ˹éÒ¡çá¾é áÅéÇ¡çá¾é·ÕèÊØ´¡ç¤×ûÃÃà·ÈªÒµÔ »ÃêҪ¹¨Ãà»ç¹»ÃêҪ¹·Ñ駻ÃÃà·È äÃèãªè»ÃêҪ¹à©¾ÒÃ㹡Ãا෾ÃËÒ¹¤Ã ¶éÒÊÃõÔÇèÒ ¡Ãا෾ÃËÒ¹¤ÃàÊÕÂËÒ »ÃÃà·È¡çàÊÕÂËÒÂä»·Ñé§Ëô áÅéÇ¡ç¨ÃÃÕ»ÃÃ⪹ìÃÃäà ·Õè¨Ã·Ã¹§µÑÇÇèÒª¹à àÇÅÒÃÂÙ躹¡Ã§ÊÔ觻ÃÑ¡ËÑ¡¾Ñ§...â€

"...because our country does not belong to any one or two persons, but belongs to everyone. Therefore, we must co-operate with one another and not confront one another, because the danger is that when people get into a state of blind fury and act in uncontrolled violence, they will not even know what they are fighting about or how to solve the problem. They will only know that they must win. But can there ever be a winner? Of course not. It is so very dangerous. There will only be losers, that is, every one is a loser, each side in the confrontation is a loser.Of course, the biggest loser of all will be the nation. The people who lose will be the people of the whole country, not only the people of Bangkok. If a great destruction occurs in Bangkok then the country as a whole is also destroyed. In such a case, what is the point of anyone feeling proud to be the winner, when standing on a pile of ruins and rubble?..."

HM King Bhumiphol, 20 May 1992

[DANNO]

I'm on the verge myself.

With a piece of 2x3 I reckon I can put down a red shirt every 3 minutes. And I can do it for about 3 hours. That's sixty... Now find 50 guys like me, we could end this in a day or so.

Dave ..I am confused ... given your just posted quote....were you in favor of the violence or not ?? and is it clear whether only one side initiated the violent actions ?? ( I recognise if the Reds had came and left this would be a moot question.

...your "reports" over the last week or so were interesting and seem to embrace emmpathy for the REDs but on occasion they also singled out segments that you would be pleased to be surgically removed ( which sounded imposible under the circumstances)

curious....what the look now?

[Bruce551]

There are actually some very real issues at the root of this.

There is a perception by "Red Shirt" sympathizers that the Abhisit government is controlled by the big money interests like "CP". These sympathizers don't necessarily support Thaksin. In general, many lower income Thai's don't have faith in the Thai Gov. to be fair.

[Guest Yim]

Actually if you get outside of Bangkok to the small villages most people do not have a clue what goes on in Babgkok, and most of them do not care regardless of color of the shirt.

[beej]

Central Bangkok, Wireless/Pechburi is like a ghost town..... there is NO ONE.... like NO ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[beej]

MCOT: Eighteen dead including 14 civilians, 4 soldiers and 825 injured in bloody clashes: Erawan Emergency Centre

[English_Bob]

I'm on the verge myself.

With a piece of 2x3 I reckon I can put down a red shirt every 3 minutes. And I can do it for about 3 hours. That's sixty... Now find 50 guys like me, we could end this in a day or so.

Dave ..I am confused ... given your just posted quote....were you in favor of the violence or not ?? and is it clear whether only one side initiated the violent actions ?? ( I recognise if the Reds had came and left this would be a moot question.

...your "reports" over the last week or so were interesting and seem to embrace emmpathy for the REDs but on occasion they also singled out segments that you would be pleased to be surgically removed ( which sounded imposible under the circumstances)

curious....what the look now?

Yes - I can see how it looks contradictory. I certainly wouldn't want to be in Abhisit's shoes needing to make these decisions.

1) Violence must be avoided.

until

2) All other options have been exhausted.

During the past weeks, I was impressed with the restraint shown by all parties. I saw the army and police were unarmed. I saw they were trying to defuse situations by negotiations.

I saw the Red Shirts have a core element trying to incite violence, whilst the majority seemed to be adhering to the 'non-violent' tenet.

It was clear for sometime that the leaders of the Red Shirts were going to keep escalating the pressure to force the government to act. They were steadily getting worse - the blood ceremonies, blocking the Rachaprasong Junction, entering parliament, the sporadic grenade attacks, the forcible entry into the Election Committee offices, the attack on the 1st army barracks...

The people of Bangkok were asking, "When is it going to stop? How can these guys just do exactly what they want with no consequences?"

The Govt had to act...

And the Red Shirt core element were more than prepared to meet them with excessive violence.

I saw no firearms held by the police or army until yesterday.

I am sure the firearms were only issued AFTER the Red Shirts began shooting and throwing grenades at unarmed security personnel.

[beej]

Are there still Soldiers being held hostage?

[beej]

The worst display of crowd control I've EVER seen..... and some weird background music to boot.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8612783.stm

[Loburt]

The people I was amongst were ordinary people. They weren't political subversives or terrorists or anything so extreme. They were families, couples; normal people.

I don't believe for one moment that they were considering radicle action; just a chance to let people who matter see that they have problems too. Not just those who already have lots of money and are ok thank you very much.

There are actually some very real issues at the root of this.

I wasn't at Kok Wua, as we thought it wiser to wait at Rajaprasong, figuring troops would come there to arrest the Red leaders.

There were the trype of people you described, and also that EB has described.

At one point, when Border Patrol Police sealed off an intersection, the Red leaders made an announcement, and virtually everyone filed over to the stage and were given sticks. Then they marched off towards the police. I'd say this was about 80% of the crowd doing this.

Now, obviously someone with a two or three foot stick can't do much damage to a policeman in riot gear. Nonetheless, I thought that was revealing of the mindset the leaders have spent a lot of time cultivating among the crowds.

If you are a peaceful nonviolent protest group, then when the police come you sit down in the street or take some other nonviolent action.

Arming yourself, even with a stick, is confrontational and not in a nonviolent way.

It may win you sympathy as David against Goliath, but it is not a nonviolent approach.

Even if you're a middle aged woman or old man, if you're out there listening to inflammatory hate speech day in and day out for several weeks, you can be inculcated and motivated to a level of aggression beyond your normal behavior. That is as true ofthe Yellows as the Reds.

Furthermore, if the middle aged women, etc were all carrying sticks, what might the guards in black and others have had with them waiting to pull out and use if fighting had broken out?

Later that eveninig at Phan Fa, according to reporter Veena of The Nation who tweeted it at the time, Red leader Suphong (?) announced "we have six more dead heroes" and the crowd erupted in cheers.

This is what the Red leaders wanted. Sacrifice the lives of a few score or more of their beloved phrai so the country will rise up and they can ride on their backs and their blood into power.

[DANNO]

I'm on the verge myself.

With a piece of 2x3 I reckon I can put down a red shirt every 3 minutes. And I can do it for about 3 hours. That's sixty... Now find 50 guys like me, we could end this in a day or so.

Dave ..I am confused ... given your just posted quote....were you in favor of the violence or not ?? and is it clear whether only one side initiated the violent actions ?? ( I recognise if the Reds had came and left this would be a moot question.

...your "reports" over the last week or so were interesting and seem to embrace emmpathy for the REDs but on occasion they also singled out segments that you would be pleased to be surgically removed ( which sounded imposible under the circumstances)

curious....what the look now?

Yes - I can see how it looks contradictory. I certainly wouldn't want to be in Abhisit's shoes needing to make these decisions.

1) Violence must be avoided.

until

2) All other options have been exhausted.

During the past weeks, I was impressed with the restraint shown by all parties. I saw the army and police were unarmed. I saw they were trying to defuse situations by negotiations.

I saw the Red Shirts have a core element trying to incite violence, whilst the majority seemed to be adhering to the 'non-violent' tenet.

It was clear for sometime that the leaders of the Red Shirts were going to keep escalating the pressure to force the government to act. They were steadily getting worse - the blood ceremonies, blocking the Rachaprasong Junction, entering parliament, the sporadic grenade attacks, the forcible entry into the Election Committee offices, the attack on the 1st army barracks...

The people of Bangkok were asking, "When is it going to stop? How can these guys just do exactly what they want with no consequences?"

The Govt had to act...

And the Red Shirt core element were more than prepared to meet them with excessive violence.

I saw no firearms held by the police or army until yesterday.

I am sure the firearms were only issued AFTER the Red Shirts began shooting and throwing grenades at unarmed security personnel.

Thanks Dave, for the clairfication on a question which ( i hope was not unfair) is complicated and the real answers will not be known , completely for some time.

As the events are truely documented...

from almost all reports (TFers too) there certainly seemed to be a segment of the RED leadership bent to violence... now ...maybe the King's 1992 quote...all interests are harmed...may be heard

sorry for all of you and all Thais

here is to a more peaceful day!

[English_Bob]

More shady Thaksin deals...

http://srilankanewsfirst.com/news/15771.html

[English_Bob]

Are there still Soldiers being held hostage?

Yes

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/174351/5-soldiers-still-being-held-by-udd

[English_Bob]

Help RT- peace protest is held tomorrow at QSNCC's Benjakitti park at 10am. #whatsup

11 àÃÉÒ¹ 2553 2:18:50

Peace March at Queen Sirikit Convention Centre today at 10am.

[Chatty]

Do you think Gov. do the right thing?

[Karnie]

Seriously, I wanna cry.... :cry:

[English_Bob]

My sentiments exactly.... I shed tears for this country.

I just visited the Peace Rally. There are scarcely 1000 people there - and at least 200 armed police - some kids, some middle-aged (and one MILF I might go back to meet).

They are listening to speeches from a few people in a pickup and singing songs. The pickup keeps reversing to let vehicles out of the car park behind them. The singing fades in and out as the speakers lose signal from the wireless mike...

And the biggest cheer of all was when a guy in the crowd shouted, "Hurry up and die Thaksin!"

[Loburt]

It's hard to know.

When the red shirts tried to enter the First Army base, personally, I think the troops were justified in coming out and deciding to clear them out, including at the Phan Fa bridge.

These were not peaceful protesters.

The question is, did they fire live rounds at the protesters before the incident at Kok Wua?

A freelance photographer working for ABC appears to have been wounded in the leg by a live round, and that report came in hours before Kok Wua.

If the troops were firing even some live rounds at protesters at that point, then they did the completely wrong thing and to take their share of the blame for what happened.

How this will be investigated and what can be proven, I just don't know.

But the big problem is that people on each side of the divide will not listen to facts or evidence if it does not fit their own narrative.

So, no matter what the truth is, we're in trouble in Thailand.

[English_Bob]

Do you think Gov. do the right thing?

I think they had no choice.

How long can Bangkok be hijacked before someone decides to do something.

I think the decision was correct. But I think the handling of it was poor.

[Chatty]

OK BTS might reopen by now..

MRT Silom open only exit 2

[Chatty]

Do you think Gov. do the right thing?

I think they had no choice.

How long can Bangkok be hijacked before someone decides to do something.

I think the decision was correct. But I think the handling of it was poor.

The time wasn't right, I think.

[CiaranM]

Do you think Gov. do the right thing?

the idea was probably right ... but the f**king muppets trying to carry out the instructions were clueless !! although in fairness that could be down to poor communication, lack of training and lack of leadership !!

i was too young to realise the full impact of bloody sunday in northern ireland .... but that 1 event changed the landscape of my country for 30 years or more !!!