Bangkok Mar 12-14

[SweetieBabie]

Paragon closes

Big C opens

[English_Bob]

Funny... the 'elite' store still can't find anyone to write a sign in correct English...

Turns out all those foreign educations don't count for much - Present Simple tense is a little beyond them.

[admin]

I think you are mistaken in this analysis.

The elite were not pissed at Thaksin because he was helping the poor or made decisions for himself. It is not a zero sum game where if you help the poor the elite will lose out.

They were pissed off at Thaksin for several reasons. First, the elite was pissed because they were losing their own opportunities. They weren't losing them to the poor. They were losing them because Thaksin was taking them, sometimes through bullying and illegal means, for himself and his friends and cronies. Now, every administration takes spoils for itself, but Thaksin was increasingly greedy, excessive and vindictive about it. Banharn and Chavalit did a lot of stealing for themselves, but they did not try to crush or starve the other camp. If you were not supportive of Thaksin, he tried to see that you lost your opportunities.

He was also building his own patronage networks in the security services and the bureaucracy, raising justified fears that he was evolving into a kind of dictator. In Thailand, the armed services and the bureaucracy don't necessarily see themselves as being completely subservient to elected politicians. They also see themselves as something of a check on them, maintaining a balance of power between several institutions. That has some good point, but some bad ones too. But it's the way it's been here for a very long time. It was slowly evolving away from that, but Thaksin's greed for power and control sparked a backlash.

The middle class were unhappy because it was their tax dollars paying for the populist policies, while they felt they weren't getting much themselves. After Thaksin won the election in 2005 he basically said that those who did not vote for him would get nothing. That's a good way to turn passive dislike into active resistance.

Then there was the Shin Corp deal, and the perceived (at least) disrespect for the high institution....

There is enough revenue and wealth in Thailand that it's not a zero sum game to help the poor. But Thaksin turned politics into a zero sum game. He was a divider, playing groups off against each other unnecessarily. And he did nothing for education, or freeing media from state control, because he did not want the poor to think for themselves or hear the other side of the story about him.

Despite coming up with some programs that benefited the poor, he did not actually do much to change the social order. He was happy to work with the elite as long as they did what he told them to do.

A smart democratic leader looks for compromise and gives all groups some of what they need or want.

Thaksin, through his greed and vindictiveness, built up a long list of enemies over time, and in the end they moved against him. Their opposition to him had nothing to do with him helping the poor or making government work more effectively for everyone.

I think you may have missed my point. I wasn't saying the elite were pissed he was helping the poor. I said they were pissed that he wasn't playing their game. Everything you just outlined here from the stupid level of greed to building his own patronage network are the things he was doing to piss off the elite and the military.

Thaksin simply used the support of the poor by throwing some money at them to gain power. The poor weren't going to get pissed if he started cutting the elites out of raping the country and there are more poor than there are elites so it's simple math. As long as he kept them happy he could give the elites a big f*ck you and they couldn't do anything about it . . . short of a coup. :-)

The main point I was making though is that in an effort to get back in power, he's exposing how the game is played at the top. He's bringing it up to incite his followers to topple the elite patronage system. His attempts at regaining power are shining a large, uncomfortable light on many people who would rather make their billions of baht in secret.

So, that is why I was saying that in some really messed up way, if the red shirt movement forces the elite class out in the open and results in some reforms then he's actually helping the country.

That being said, I also was making the point that he's not doing this for the good of Thailand. That's a byproduct. It's that he knows he can't come back under the current elite controlled system so he needs to destroy it in order to come back and continue raping the country himself.

[Loburt]

But you also missed my point.

Thaksin operated his own elite patronage system. And his political allies were all enormously wealthy and corrupt provinicial barons. They are also an elite, and part of the overall elite. And despite sitting in parliament for two decades they did next to nothing to change the social order to benefit the lower classes and decrease inequalities. They just enriched themselves at the expense of others. The exact same thing Thaksin and the Reds say their opponents are doing.

The idea that Thaksin would topple such a system is ludicrous. He simply channeled the spoils to his members of the elite, while trying to eliminate members of the elite that did not support him.

Thaksin did nothing to change that elite patronage system. He won't change it if he comes back. He'll just take revenge on enemies.

In fact, he and his cronies stole more than the traditional elites. I clearly remember after a year or so in office businessmen and others complaining that the bribe percentage for any government project had risen from 10% to 20%, then 30%. His Transport Minister Suriya was nicknamed Mr. 20%. It' not like Suriya was some poor farmer. He was super rich already.A member of the elite. So how does that behavior and track record lead you to believe he would change the elite patronage system.

I guess my post was more appropriate in response to Neo's assertion that the "elites" will get rid of anyone who tries to actually govern. That is just not the case, if that person is governing fairly.

[Guest Yim]

This will go on until the end of time. Now that it has escalated to other places. People are working behind the scenes. Yesterday a Red-shirt leaders house in Khon Kaen was fire-bombed along with two other places in Khon Kaen. I am sure we will start seeing more of this and start seeing people go missing.

[Loburt]

Which red shirt leader?

Why haven't the red speakers on stage been making an issue of this?

[Admin_2]

Which red shirt leader?

Why haven't the red speakers on stage been making an issue of this?

I don't know who he is, but here's his name:

Wirat Saensupholraj

[Loburt]

I don't know who he is either. Where did you get this info?

[Loburt]

I see now it is in the Nation report. But KK police say they think it is the same people who threw a grenade into a local school.

This sounds like it could be related to Mr. Wirat's dealings in KK rather than a political statement. Just like the bomb at the Commerce Minister's whorehouse.

[Admin_2]

I don't know who he is either. Where did you get this info?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Bangkok-Red-Shirt-Rally-Live-Thur-t354182.html

[bigKus]

I don't know who he is either. Where did you get this info?

Actually, it doesnt matter who is he and what is his rule in reds, refer to EB's lastest post, most of reds and their leaders are like that including to Kwanchai Priprana. From their own trace record, they have their own enemies.

One small news in local newspaper, 1 guy redshirts from Khon Kean got killed after get back home from demonstration in Bkk. They found out later that he got an affair with a red woman and got killed by her husband

[Loburt]

I think if it was an anti-Red political act, the Red speakers would be bloviating about it onstage nonstop and screaming bloody murder to the press.

The fact that they aren't suggests that they know it was a personal conflict.

[Neo]

Funny... the 'elite' store still can't find anyone to write a sign in correct English...

Turns out all those foreign educations don't count for much - Present Simple tense is a little beyond them.

I blame the English teachers 8)

[LakeGeneve]

There were countably under 200 protesters at the Central world protest yesterday afternoon ONLY!

Would could this area not have been cleaned out and back to normal?

It does seem strange to not take advantage of the lulls to at least decrease the area affected by the occupation.

I am completely against the use of force against the main crowd having stated that the govt should wait it out until Songkran. But I have also argued that the govt could be seeking to contain the area affected and incrementally open up some of outer areas away from Ratchprsong intersection. Rama I west of Henry Dunant being the prime example that I have mentioned. There is no reason for central Siam to remain part of the affected area.

Planned and executed well with overwhleming police numbers, good timing, logistics (eg. insert shipping containers to box off access from the main crowd a la South Korea) and dialogue one could secure an area with manageable, minimal problems. Then clear the remaining red shirts out escorting them to join the main crowd. Done in such a manner to show some firm resolve whilst minimising the use of force and potential injury to all. None of the half hearted stuff we have seen so far.

The pros and cons would have to be weighed at the time contingent on the temperment of the occupation as it may have the consequences of sending a 'red flag to a bull' but may also send a clear message.

[LakeGeneve]

There were countably under 200 protesters at the Central world protest yesterday afternoon ONLY!

Would could this area not have been cleaned out and back to normal?

As an addition.

While many seem to be calling for the army ti use force to clear out Ratchprsong after only 5 days let's not forget that a key junction at Phan Fa bridge has been blocked for over 3 weeks. A real bummer if you live on the other side of the river.

Reportedly there were only 200 there at midday;

Dwindling protests at Phan Fa Bridge, The Nation, 08/04 1:03pm

The red-shirt activities of the main rally site at Phan Fa Bridge have been scaled down as the majority of red shirts and their leaders shift focus to Rajprasong.

As of noon on Thursday, some 200 protesters were gathering in front of the Phan Fa rally stage.

None of the rally organisers were seen and speakers on the stage were incumbent and former lawmakers from Pheu Thai Party. They made fiery attacks against the shut-down of PTV.

So why not clear this site while most of the red shirts are focussed on Ratchprasong? (Unless the plan is that those in Ratchprasong, if and when it is cleared, have the Phan Fa bridge site for a retreat?)

[koolbreez]

With the conviction of the 5 red shirts in Chaing Mai for the beating murder in the case of a yellow shirt man, 4 have turned themselves in to go to jail, the 5th has been spotted on the stage in Bangkok after jumping bail. He is going to be the first person the gov't makes a big deal, and showing, of arresting. He has been convicted of murder, if they see him again they will move in, and arrest him immediately, and anyone trying to protect him will be arrested, and accused of harboring a murderer. That is the spark, the turning point, the gov't needs to start making arrests.

There will be no public sympathy for any red shirt trying to protect a convicted murderer, even from the poor. The fact that the other 4 have turned themselves in justifies it as a legitimate conviction without political motives involved in the conviction. It was a plain case of murder.

[English_Bob]

With the conviction of the 5 red shirts in Chaing Mai for the beating murder in the case of a yellow shirt man, 4 have turned themselves in to go to jail, the 5th has been spotted on the stage in Bangkok after jumping bail. He is going to be the first person the gov't makes a big deal, and showing, of arresting. He has been convicted of murder, if they see him again they will move in, and arrest him immediately, and anyone trying to protect him will be arrested, and accused of harboring a murderer. That is the spark, the turning point, the gov't needs to start making arrests.

There will be no public sympathy for any red shirt trying to protect a convicted murderer, even from the poor. The fact that the other 4 have turned themselves in justifies it as a legitimate conviction without political motives involved in the conviction. It was a plain case of murder.

Don't expect logical thought processes here... Propaganda will claim he is being made a scapegoat. There were 15+ people involved in a fight. The Yellow Shirt got shot by someone - Reds will argue it's impossible to prove who pulled the trigger.

Plus you are dealing with Taxi driver mentality - "He was a Yellow Shirt.... He disagreed with me... therefore, he had it comin'."

[Admin_2]

My Siam Square Soi 3 shop is re-opening today...and guess who has to open it.

:shock:

[beej]

Huge parade moving down Petchburi road now, toward Ekamai.

[bigKus]

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thanong/2010/04/09/entry-2

Thaksin is seiously sick

[LakeGeneve]

Some good images for the world on a few of the Thai channels in the last hour...

THAICOM STATION

Red shirts storm into station, seizing police trucks

By The Nation 15:16 9 April 10

Red shirts protesters broke soldiers' barricades and entered ThaiCom uplink station's compound and were trying to enter the staton's buildings in Lat Lum Kaew, Pathum Thani province at about 2.40pm.

The protesters managed to raid the site although the soldiers threw smoke bombs to stop them.

The protesters threw objects at soldiers and the buildings, trying to break into the building. Pheu Thai MP Jatuporn Prompan and Nuttawut Sakua.

They reportedly seized police trucks parking inside the compound and forced open and seized weapons from the trucks.

Earlier thousands of red shirts pushed through the riot forces at the outer perimeter to get to the gate of ThaiCom uplink station in Lat Lum Kaew, Pathum Thani.

The Emergency Operations Command deploy about 7,000 riot forces to guard the satellite uplink station.

Around 2.00 pm, red-shirt leader Jatuporn Promphan, speaking from a mobile platform atop a truck, urged the red shirts to stay calm and not to raid the satellite uplink station. The military made repeated announcement warning the crowds not to cross the double security perimeters.

Around 2.30 pm, the riot forces began preparations for crowd control. Forces were seen deployment the water canon to deter the crowds after devices emitting heave smoke were thrown from the crowds.

[LakeGeneve]

Tthousands of red shirts are out at Pathum Thani 'visiting' ThaiCom AND most of them are the hard core itching for a fight.

Thus, I assume now might be the time to start retaking some of the affected areas with few red shirts whilst leaving Ratchprason intact to avoid the main crowd? Siam and Phan Fa could be a good start if hardly anyone is there?

Will head down there again about 5pm to take a look.

[Chatty]

Tthousands of red shirts are out at Pathum Thani 'visiting' ThaiCom AND most of them are the hard core itching for a fight.

Thus, I assume now might be the time to start retaking some of the affected areas with few red shirts whilst leaving Ratchprason intact to avoid the main crowd? Siam and Phan Fa could be a good start if hardly anyone is there?

Will head down there again about 5pm to take a look.

Thinking of going to Ratchaprasong that time before TF party start... Central World open already, right? We meet if we meet then haha...

but Hey!! Thai Com belongs to Chin Corp. right?

[CiaranM]

Thus, I assume now might be the time to start retaking some of the affected areas with few red shirts whilst leaving Ratchprason intact to avoid the main crowd? Siam and Phan Fa could be a good start if hardly anyone is there?

Will head down there again about 5pm to take a look.

the thai police and military r a f**king joke !!! at least when the yellow shirts took over the airport it was a surpise .... the red shirts f**king tell them where they r going and they still can't stop them !! absolutely pathetic !!!

i think they must have been adivised on the strategic withdrawal (retreat) by the italian army !!!

[Admin_2]

Thus, I assume now might be the time to start retaking some of the affected areas with few red shirts whilst leaving Ratchprason intact to avoid the main crowd? Siam and Phan Fa could be a good start if hardly anyone is there?

Will head down there again about 5pm to take a look.

the thai police and military r a f**king joke !!! at least when the yellow shirts took over the airport it was a surpise .... the red shirts f**king tell them where they r going and they still can't stop them !! absolutely pathetic !!!

i think they must have been adivised on the strategic withdrawal (retreat) by the italian army !!!

Tear gas and water cannons were used, but the reds easily took over Thaicom's satellite station.