Stramash Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 And, as with many 'philosophies'. the problem was with the corruption of the original ideals rather than the ideal themself. Iain_D - first of all i can't be impartial to the old man or to his ideas, as my family been forced out from my country and send to concentration camps based on the old man ideas or "corruption of original ideas" (if you will)... So pardon my view... Second, i did not see anyone killed or tortured based on Kant writings or works by Plato... IMHO opinion its present clear case that there is something wrong with ideas itself. Its not scientific, but it works for me. Cheers Mate, while I have the sincerest sympathies for victims of forced emigration, internment or other atrocities, I think to try and appportion even the smallest portion of blame at Marx's door is naive at best.You quote me one line from Das Kapital or even the Communist Manifesto which suggests such polices then it would be different, but having read and studied both texts, I think you would be better laying the blame at the door of Stalin and his ilk rather than Karl... No-one tries to blame Adam Smith for any of the oppressive policies of capitalism...so why should Marx get the blame for Communism? Indeed, if Marx's ideas had been properly adhered to, many of todays crises would have been avoided altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyman Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Ipsissima verba The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.Working Men of All Countries, Unite! Sorry, I can't read it any more as it makes me sick... I mean so.. it makes me very very sick... Sorry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 but 'those very words' do not advocate gulags, forced deportation or pogroms against ordinary people; they advocate overthrow of the ruling classes and of the social conditions which kept the proletariat at the bottom of the class struggle. In the context of the conditions, both social and political, of the time these words were written, those words were totally praiseworthy. Do not confuse a tract written in 1848 by Marx and Engels with the totalitarian policies of Stalinism a century later (as I presume you are originally from a former Soviet bloc country) 'Ipsissima verba' of the lines before your quote from Chapter 4 - In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things. In all these movements, they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time. Finally, they labour everywhere for the union and agreement of the democratic parties of all countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oo.Cloud.oO Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 (If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him) That is religion IMO. Carl Jung wrote an excellent book call Symbol and Psyche which I think does a good job explaining the human psyche. Highly recommend it. read it! and thats a great quote as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyman Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Ian_D. Lets be friends. I buy you pint when you get here... Even I come from about 100 generations of oppressors... Can we have beer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Ian_D. Lets be friends. I buy you pint when you get here... Even I come from about 100 generations of oppressors... Can we have beer? oh there was absolutely no animosity at all and would be happy to share a beer or 7!! I can understand totally your opposition to Communism and to the former Soviet regimes; I merely wanted to point out that none of it was Marx's fault. He would have been as sickened as you by what Communism became in the USSR. Stalin was one sick b*stard but his policies owed nothing to the writings of Marx. He was as much an oppressor of the proletariat as the Tsars had been, and a lot more brutal and hopefully any soul the f*cker had is burning in pain for eternity. One rule for the beer drinking though; no bloody politics!! Let's stick to football and women!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Moobs Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 in all seriousness though, there will come a time when everyone on the planet will have even basic internet (or whatever it will be) connection in their hand, just as i do right now. And with that must come streams of knowledge and discussion. It wont be so easy for religions to prey on the 'great unwashed' and demand blind faith. Highly educated, internet surfing people crashed Airplanes into the WTCs on 9-11=2001 based on faith in a GoD. Many, if not most, of those educated, internet surfing, GoD fearing unwashed were educated in the West. The founders of the Muslim Brotherhood were educated in the West. The founder, Qutb (I think is his name), was educated in Colorado. Most of Osama bin Laden's family were educated in the West. Though Osama refused to pursue education in the West and instead attended a school in Jeddah (?). Ahmed Shah Masoud was deeply religious. Was educated at Kabul University. Held a degree in Architecture and spoke French fluently among other languages. Religion will be around for a long while. Until we can explain our origins and our purpose here in life definitively. The hybrid religions of humanity that exist today will more than likely fall away over time just as all previous religions have fallen away. New hybrids will replace these and we will go on searching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 (If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him) That is religion IMO. Carl Jung wrote an excellent book call Symbol and Psyche which I think does a good job explaining the human psyche. Highly recommend it. I did read this book as well as work of his older brother Herr Sigmund Freud, however as any professionally train philosopher can attest, it can act as tool to solve some simple psychiatric problems, its a bit to shallow to use as foundation for discourse into function of Supernatural Been (if such exist). P.S. My quote is not religion. Its philosophy in its best form.. Voltaire is father of modern thinking (even das Kapital dude happy to agree on this) The quote describes why man has religion no matter how you label it. Symbol and Psyche goes deep into spiritual matters but only in how man uses them to express his thoughts and feelings as far as I remember. If you read the book you will see that It does give a psychological reason for man to have a christ figure and a god to express his mind. They are called archetypes or Jungian archetypes. And the book is a great place to start in discussing the" foundation for discourse into function of supernatural been" as that is what the book has, whole chapters explaining that whole process in great detail. :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Moobs Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 they're already dead, the dumbasses just don't know it yet. global warming is about to kill us all. proving that there is no divine plan. ...until Al Gore invents one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 they're already dead, the dumbasses just don't know it yet.global warming is about to kill us all. proving that there is no divine plan. ...until Al Gore invents one. we'll run out of water before we bake to death ......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 they're already dead, the dumbasses just don't know it yet.global warming is about to kill us all. proving that there is no divine plan. ...until Al Gore invents one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
music Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 I think as the human race evolves spiritually, organized religion will become less prominent in peoples' lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 I think as the human race evolves spiritually, organized religion will become less prominent in peoples' lives. I agree but the evolving part could take a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FLGlenn Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 The future is uncertain and the end is always near...let it roll baby roll, all night long! 8) 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Moobs Posted May 21, 2009 Report Share Posted May 21, 2009 I have the fervent hope that Christianity and Islam fall away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drlovelife8 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Although I am a firm believer that a Darwinistic via Richard Dawkins like approach to religion is a logical way to see it, I believe Islam will eventually rule the world. It's never backs down. It never compromises. It is a fantastic example of social conditioning. Many times in the Middle East I was amazed at the loyalty to this fairytale of pap. This will never go away. It will get stronger. It will tear your ******* soul apart.............. ALLAH HU AKBAR!!!! (repeat to fade) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeeMarc Posted May 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Glad this thread is still going.... interesting stuff. But to go back to the original question... will religion (as we know it today) eventually die? I believe it will.... not sure how long though... or what it would be replaced with...if anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drlovelife8 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 islam will never die, it will only get stronger. the good news for me is i should be dead long before that time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranM Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 islam will never die, it will only get stronger.the good news for me is i should be dead long before that time increased standards of living and better education would prevent any religion taking complete control ..... however, when ppl r dirt poor and receive little or no education, this provides a fertile breeding ground for religion and extremism !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAV Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 It wont be long before the church and state combine and then we will be totally screwed. It is almost a fact in the US already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombiedriven Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 What the hell is up with all the religion posts today :?: IMHO religion is about to make a sideline for the gutter. Unless you are listening to the Os....Obama and his I AM GOD speaches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodKarma Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Since it's impossible to disprove the existence of a higher being or an afterlife of some sort, and people have an innate desire to believe in something, it seems likely that there will always be some kind of religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
English_Bob Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Yes. And they will be replaced by a new religion - Bobism The new God was born in a lowly housing estate in Manchester. He grew up just like any normal kid. However, there was an Epiphany around his 30th Birthday that made him realise he was meant for bigger things. He went on a journey of self discovery to the far East (Thailand) where he taught his followers the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, and present perfect and past simple tenses. All over the world, believers are now shaving their heads (in idolisation). One day they will rise up and spread love throughout the world, but especially amongst slim Asian girls. Take a look around you.... We're already here. There is only one God and Bob is his name. (His prophet is called Iain) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranM Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Yes.And they will be replaced by a new religion - Bobism The new God was born in a lowly housing estate in Manchester. He grew up just like any normal kid. However, there was an Epiphany around his 30th Birthday that made him realise he was meant for bigger things. He went on a journey of self discovery to the far East (Thailand) where he taught his followers the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, and present perfect and past simple tenses. All over the world, believers are now shaving their heads (in idolisation). One day they will rise up and spread love throughout the world, but especially amongst slim Asian girls. Take a look around you.... We're already here. There is only one God and Bob is his name. (His prophet is called Iain) so who the f**k is this imposter called Dave .... crucify him !! crucify him !! crucify him !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.