Bangkok Mar 12-14

[bigKus]

For me, only problem which to be concerned that how the govt would get those brainwashed violence tendency people in North and Issaan educated about what really democracy means

Well a good start is to assume that you should not really assume that people are 'those brainwashed violence tendency people in North and Issaan'.

Alternatively rather than trying to persuade them, you should assume they are not sentient human beings and simply shoot them all rather like the way one gets rid of cockroaches (well rather like the way I get rid of cockroaches.)

Or you can simply put up a sign like one of my local neighbors did and say 'we do not employ 'kwai' isaan people.'

I just read some of your previous posts, so I could not see clearly your TH politics oriented views. But I dont like what you just replied to my post.

What I all avoid to comment here and everywhere both on/off line is insulting and provocative words (which considered at the moment as the main problem to be fixed first). What I have said here was its obviously that people who involved in act of violences were from the mentioned parts of Thailand and they have been inputed so wrong about fighting for demcracy.

btw, regarding your neighbour if i were you i will walk toward and put down that sign by myself

[PJack]

Curfew was just officially lifted.

8)

Have fun, and stay safe, kiddies!

does not make a damn different to me. I go to bed by 8pm.

like to get an early start. i like that

[robbie36]

I just read some of your previous posts, so I could not see clearly your TH politics oriented views. But I dont like what you just replied to my post.

What I all avoid to comment here and everywhere both on/off line is insulting and provocative words (which considered at the moment as the main problem to be fixed first). What I have said here was its obviously that people who involved in act of violences were from the mentioned parts of Thailand and they have been inputed so wrong about fighting for demcracy.

BK,

I guarantee you have absolutely no idea about my political views. But you simply cannot claim to 'avoid insulting and provocative' words when you claim at the same time the people from the North and Isaan are 'brainwashed'. So just bear in mind that while the sentiment of avoiding 'insulting and provocative' words is a good one, accusing people of being 'brainwashed' is both 'insulting and provocative' - which as you rightly point out is part of the underlying problem.

(And really, I didnt mean that you should shoot them all as that might not be a very good idea.)

btw, regarding your neighbour if i were you i will walk toward and put down that sign by myself

Why bother? If I tore it down, I would simply be doing him a favor.

[pandorea]

One thing errr good, that came out of this whole mess, a lot more Thai's seem to be interested in Politics than before.... not so sure if thats a good thing or a bad thing though.

Don't worry it will pass. Since Luang Wichitwathakan to the October 1973 democracy movement to Kriangsak Chomanand, to Prem Tinsulanonda, to 1981 young turk and to... and to ....

We talk about it for somewhile, it's kind of fashion and we will be busy with something else.

I kinda agreed with beej ka P' Nicky. This time affected all Thai social classes and wont be easy forget. They might be talk about politics less when the time pass by but they will observe more and know what/how to deal with such an issue when the election season approaching them next time.

For me, only problem which to be concerned that how the govt would get those brainwashed violence tendency people in North and Issaan educated about what really democracy means

and I don't disagree with beej, Sis.

Do you remember the October 1973 democracy movement? Many university students got killed, and many of them had to leave the city. All those "Carabow" musics were banned. We can't play those "à¾Å§à¾×èêÕÇÔµ". The government burnt all books about "Communism" (and they even burnt books about "communication" or any book starts with "com...", by mistake of course) Many people were talking about politic by then but not for too long. Things were forgotten and we keep repeating the same mistake. Let's see what will happen in the next 5 years, shall we?

Speaking of brainwashed (that's a big word), IMHO, we are all brainwashed, Sis. more or less, with or without knowing/accepting it. I won't blame it on people in the North or Issaan, it won't be fair.

[PiAnt]

Ok this thread is like two months or more out of date, so I'm locking it.

*THREAD LOCKED*

[zeusbheld]

...

Speaking of brainwashed (that's a big word), IMHO, we are all brainwashed, Sis. more or less, with or without knowing/accepting it. I won't blame it on people in the North or Issaan, it won't be fair.

i think "entrenched" would be a better word than "brainwashed." brainwashing is something pretty specific and implies at least a bit of coercion. i've met a good few red supporters and whatnot and wouldn't describe them as brainwashed.

they are, however, so deeply entrenched in their beliefs that they are fully capable of ignoring facts staring them in the face that contradict their beliefs. they have chosen what they want to believe in, and once entrenched very rigid in their beliefs (often to the point where the 'truth' of their claims cannot be challenged by mere facts. there's no coercion but a high degree of rigidity sets in.

they're not alone in this. yellow-sympathizers pretty much the same way, not singling out reds. indeed, both Democrats and Republicans (vbroker in particular) tend to cling to their ideology in this way, and probably members of *any* political party or ideology or way of thinking (except for maybe for skepticism; if you're rigid in your doubt you're not truly a skeptic).

both sides of the political divide in Thailand are showing strong symptoms of this. this makes it a very difficult environment for reconciliation and it may be the sort of thing that takes years or even decades more.

[robbie36]

i think "entrenched" would be a better word than "brainwashed." brainwashing is something pretty specific and implies at least a bit of coercion. i've met a good few red supporters and whatnot and wouldn't describe them as brainwashed.

skepticism; if you're rigid in your doubt you're not truly a skeptic).

both sides of the political divide in Thailand are showing strong symptoms of this. this makes it a very difficult environment for reconciliation and it may be the sort of thing that takes years or even decades more.

Yes 'entrenched' is a very good word. IT sort of implies that to the extent that you hold a view it is so certain that anyone who disagrees is either 'stupid' 'brainwashed' 'uneducated' or a 'simpleton'.

Actually when people have very strong views that you happen to disagree with, it is better to take a look at your own views, reexamine them and see if they are correct.

Always within any conflict, the resolution comes from 'understanding' rather than 'underestimating' the people you disagree with.

[robbie36]

i think "entrenched" would be a better word than "brainwashed." brainwashing is something pretty specific and implies at least a bit of coercion. i've met a good few red supporters and whatnot and wouldn't describe them as brainwashed.

skepticism; if you're rigid in your doubt you're not truly a skeptic).

both sides of the political divide in Thailand are showing strong symptoms of this. this makes it a very difficult environment for reconciliation and it may be the sort of thing that takes years or even decades more.

Yes 'entrenched' is a very good word. IT sort of implies that to the extent that you hold a view it is so certain that anyone who disagrees is either 'stupid' 'brainwashed' 'uneducated' or a 'simpleton'.

Actually when people have very strong views that you happen to disagree with, it is better to take a look at your own views, reexamine them and see if they are correct.

Always within any conflict, the resolution comes from 'understanding' rather than 'underestimating' the people you disagree with.

[Karnie]

PLEASE TELL ME WHEN WILL THIS THREAD GONE OR JUST START WITH THE NEW ONE BECAUSE I AM SO BORED WITH ALL THOSE FAKE BUMP, BUTT OR WHATEVER!. Bulp!!!!!!!!!!!

[Stramash]

PLEASE TELL ME WHEN WILL THIS THREAD GONE OR JUST START WITH THE NEW ONE BECAUSE I AM SO BORED WITH ALL THOSE FAKE BUMP, BUTT OR WHATEVER!. Bulp!!!!!!!!!!!

boiled peanut girl strikes again...

[PiAnt]

Entrenched is ok, but I much prefer stringent.

Just seems to have more meat on it.

[Karnie]

PLEASE TELL ME WHEN WILL THIS THREAD GONE OR JUST START WITH THE NEW ONE BECAUSE I AM SO BORED WITH ALL THOSE FAKE BUMP, BUTT OR WHATEVER!. Bulp!!!!!!!!!!!

boiled peanut girl strikes again...

i am behave girl in real life but all those MARGARITA make me do stupid nonsense thing! ALWAYS!!!!

[pandorea]

PLEASE TELL ME WHEN WILL THIS THREAD GONE OR JUST START WITH THE NEW ONE BECAUSE I AM SO BORED WITH ALL THOSE FAKE BUMP, BUTT OR WHATEVER!. Bulp!!!!!!!!!!!

Sweetheart, I happen to like this thread (same as many TFers) so apparently it won't be gone any time soon (unless P'Ant has become a mod again but I won't put my money on that). I guess you just have to bare with it, or simply click away ..try random inanity?

[steevolution]

he has been clean for two years now and for the last year has been in Thailand.

“Everything was going well,†Ron says. “He had earned a teaching certificate and was ready to start work next week as a teacher.â€

After a police interrogation lasting six hours, they were released with just a warning. And the school he was planning to work in has already let Creating Balance know he’s still welcome.

more proud English teachers.

wouldn't this post be more appropriate to the "why do peple hate English teachers" thread?

or perhaps the "why the Thai school system deserves scorn and ridicule" thread?

sure, drug rehab programs for Dutch citizens, that's the first place i'd look to scrape up some English teachers.

the Thai school probably figures that if the school nurse can be given the task of handing out the methadone, then the junkies (ex) are more likely to show up to "mold young thai minds" every day.

this reminds me of the story of the notoriously serially drug-addled-addicted hollywood actress that was recruited to "guide" other drug-addled-addicted celebs on one of those get-clean-andsober shows after she'd been clean for three or six months.

yeehaw.

[steevolution]

http://atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE29Ae02.html

Another journalist with a scoop on the 'Men in Black'.

M16 and AR-15 rifles slid free from concealment

Kenneth Todd Ruiz is a freelance journalist living in Bangkok and blogging at reporterinexile.com.

(Copyright 2010 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)

i'm sorry, i want to know how he decided there were AR-15s in there, and where "Clark Kent" thinks they came from.

this smacks of Jeff Pinecone journalism: watch tv and then just make **** up. any time a journo makes **** up, which he obviously did with the AR-15s, it calls into question anything he's written.

you think i can get some money out of atimes.com? St Eevolution is a freelance living in BKK and spewin his **** on TF? i had an exclusive about the rise of cannibalism amongst highrise dwellers!

[steevolution]

put up a sign like one of my local neighbors did and say 'we do not employ 'kwai' isaan people.'

'woranut' bangkokians only need apply.

[zeusbheld]

Entrenched is ok, but I much prefer stringent.

Just seems to have more meat on it.

'stringent' isn't all that relevant to the topic at hand, but it's a good, solid, woody-sounding word. not at all like those namby pamby tinny sounding words.'take malfeasance' for example. tinny, tinny, tinny, tinny.

[zeusbheld]

http://atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE29Ae02.html

Another journalist with a scoop on the 'Men in Black'.

M16 and AR-15 rifles slid free from concealment

Kenneth Todd Ruiz is a freelance journalist living in Bangkok and blogging at reporterinexile.com.

(Copyright 2010 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)

i'm sorry, i want to know how he decided there were AR-15s in there, and where "Clark Kent" thinks they came from.

this smacks of Jeff Pinecone journalism: watch tv and then just make sh*t up. any time a journo makes sh*t up, which he obviously did with the AR-15s, it calls into question anything he's written.

you think i can get some money out of atimes.com? St Eevolution is a freelance living in BKK and spewin his sh*t on TF? i had an exclusive about the rise of cannibalism amongst highrise dwellers!

while it's perfectly plausible to conceal an assault rifle in a tent (or even under an overcoat if you don't mind looking pregnant), i'd like to know how he can tell an m16 from an AR15 at a glance. it's pretty easy to tell an m16/ar15 from other assault rifles (because they're funny looking), but how does he know any given weapon was an ar15 and not an m16, when they're being whisked out of concealment?

i'm no gun expert but as i understand it the difference between an AR15 and an M16 is that an M16 has a full auto setting and can spray bullets machine-gun style ('rock and roll' to military types and steevolution). the AR15 is the 'consumer' model, the kind steevolution probably has in his weapons cache (as well as the Thai police, most lkely).

quite possibly these guys didn't make it up, but if they're reporting what they saw it's a bad patch of sloppy, imprecise writing--exactly how they were concealed/revealed is what would be interesting to know....

[Karnie]

PLEASE TELL ME WHEN WILL THIS THREAD GONE OR JUST START WITH THE NEW ONE BECAUSE I AM SO BORED WITH ALL THOSE FAKE BUMP, BUTT OR WHATEVER!. Bulp!!!!!!!!!!!

Sweetheart, I happen to like this thread (same as many TFers) so apparently it won't be gone any time soon (unless P'Ant has become a mod again but I won't put my money on that). I guess you just have to bare with it, or simply click away ..try random inanity?

nah....it was me being crazy in front of computer especially i was drunk when i did give above comment....there is nothing behind what i said.....i always playing around which i know it annoying and some didnt like it. pls dont take thing too serious....life is so short. :wink:

[koolbreez]

http://atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE29Ae02.html

Another journalist with a scoop on the 'Men in Black'.

A very interesting read and much more believable than the fiction that other freelancer wrote about being in the snipers nest. I wonder if this article has been picked up at all by some of the OS press?

The Sarbil guy has a few great B&W shots on his website but I am surprised he only has 18 pics for the last 2 months posted. http://www.oliviersarbil.com/

This was a good read on the planning and conduct of the operation on the 19th by the Post Military Affairs reporter Wassana who is published every Thurs with some good suggestions at the end; http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/37773/operation-ratchaprasong-planned-as-urban-warfare

I agree with her conclusion that

The first reporter's dialog of his experience inside a military sniper team's operation, although highly questionable, is plausible on how they operated.

The second reporter's inside look at the Blackshirt contingent of the redshirt guards, is also very plausible on their operations, and he was probably there.

The final reporter's inclusion of a third element operating is spot on. There are 3 incedences, and maybe more, that can be directly contributed to their existance, and indescriminate style of killing to cause the most damage to the government, and incite the redshirts as much as possible.

The first being the killing of the Reuters journalist from Japan, when his filming was just about to pan to the spot that the shot to his chest came from. He didn't quite film who killed him, and a shot to the chest was no accident. In total 8 journalists were shot, 2 of them killed. Neither side had anything to gain by shooting plainly marked, and identidied, journalists. By identifying either side as shooting journalists, puts that side in a very bad light. In all incidences, except 2, neither side has been attributed to shooting journalists.

The second incident was the shooting of the solder on the motorbike. At first it was labeled as friendly fire, then discounted by Porntip as being friendly fire because of the direction of the shot. No redshirts were in the area the shot came from, and they were never accused of using sniper teams in their operations.

The third is the shooting of Seh Daung. He was shot at close range. This being assumed because of the reporter's description of what he heard (a loud bang) when he was shot. This happened at the most interior of the redshirt check points, 2 check points between the solders, and him, before you reached this point. It is possible that the military did this, but they would have operated from a distance, and a loud bang wouldn't have been heard, just a pop sound. He was shot with a .223 round (M16, 5.56, .223, what ever you want to call it), and only is heard as a loud bang at close distances, more than 30m and they just sound like a pop. The sniper rifles the military were using (.308 calibre) would have taken the whole back/side of his head out, not going in his temple, and coming out at the base of his neck. Also why would they only shoot him? Any of the leaders were targets. Take out the whole leadership, and you have no contention. They were all charged with terrorism, which carries the death penalty.

My opinion is that Seh Daung was trying to gain to much power from these demonstrations, and was taken out by this same third party, so he couldn't become politically active in the next elections. He wasn't playing by the rules Thaksin had orchestrated, thus he was eliminated.

These are just 3 incidences that in my opinion are atributed to this third party that was, and still is operating. Hired by Thaksin, and used by him in the past, to further his agenda. Why was Thaksin so sure the Central World fire was the work of professionals, and not redshirts? I'm pretty sure he doesn't have access to current forensics in Thailand to be so sure it wasn't redshirts.

[kaunitz]

http://atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE29Ae02.html

Another journalist with a scoop on the 'Men in Black'.

A very interesting read and much more believable than the fiction that other freelancer wrote about being in the snipers nest. I wonder if this article has been picked up at all by some of the OS press?

The Sarbil guy has a few great B&W shots on his website but I am surprised he only has 18 pics for the last 2 months posted. http://www.oliviersarbil.com/

This was a good read on the planning and conduct of the operation on the 19th by the Post Military Affairs reporter Wassana who is published every Thurs with some good suggestions at the end; http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/37773/operation-ratchaprasong-planned-as-urban-warfare

I agree with her conclusion that

The first reporter's dialog of his experience inside a military sniper team's operation, although highly questionable, is plausible on how they operated.

The second reporter's inside look at the Blackshirt contingent of the redshirt guards, is also very plausible on their operations, and he was probably there.

The final reporter's inclusion of a third element operating is spot on. There are 3 incedences, and maybe more, that can be directly contributed to their existance, and indescriminate style of killing to cause the most damage to the government, and incite the redshirts as much as possible.

The first being the killing of the Reuters journalist from Japan, when his filming was just about to pan to the spot that the shot to his chest came from. He didn't quite film who killed him, and a shot to the chest was no accident. In total 8 journalists were shot, 2 of them killed. Neither side had anything to gain by shooting plainly marked, and identidied, journalists. By identifying either side as shooting journalists, puts that side in a very bad light. In all incidences, except 2, neither side has been attributed to shooting journalists.

The second incident was the shooting of the solder on the motorbike. At first it was labeled as friendly fire, then discounted by Porntip as being friendly fire because of the direction of the shot. No redshirts were in the area the shot came from, and they were never accused of using sniper teams in their operations.

The third is the shooting of Seh Daung. He was shot at close range. This being assumed because of the reporter's description of what he heard (a loud bang) when he was shot. This happened at the most interior of the redshirt check points, 2 check points between the solders, and him, before you reached this point. It is possible that the military did this, but they would have operated from a distance, and a loud bang wouldn't have been heard, just a pop sound. He was shot with a .223 round (M16, 5.56, .223, what ever you want to call it), and only is heard as a loud bang at close distances, more than 30m and they just sound like a pop. The sniper rifles the military were using (.308 calibre) would have taken the whole back/side of his head out, not going in his temple, and coming out at the base of his neck. Also why would they only shoot him? Any of the leaders were targets. Take out the whole leadership, and you have no contention. They were all charged with terrorism, which carries the death penalty.

My opinion is that Seh Daung was trying to gain to much power from these demonstrations, and was taken out by this same third party, so he couldn't become politically active in the next elections. He wasn't playing by the rules Thaksin had orchestrated, thus he was eliminated.

These are just 3 incidences that in my opinion are atributed to this third party that was, and still is operating. Hired by Thaksin, and used by him in the past, to further his agenda. Why was Thaksin so sure the Central World fire was the work of professionals, and not redshirts? I'm pretty sure he doesn't have access to current forensics in Thailand to be so sure it wasn't redshirts.

1+!!

Many if not most people affiliate the men in black with the red shirts. After all I heard and saw, they may be financed by the same source but for sure had a different task during the riots!

[robbie36]

These are just 3 incidences that in my opinion are atributed to this third party that was, and still is operating. Hired by Thaksin, and used by him in the past, to further his agenda. Why was Thaksin so sure the Central World fire was the work of professionals, and not redshirts? I'm pretty sure he doesn't have access to current forensics in Thailand to be so sure it wasn't redshirts.

Interesting questions. I 'suspect' that the blackshirts were at least indirectly financed by Thaksin but that is all. Why would they burn down Central, when the Chirathivat family were on his side while he was in control - say the sacking of the editor of the 'Bangkok Post -' or why would they attempt to burn down channel 3 while there was a Maleenont prominent in Thaksin's Government.

[SweetieBabie]

PM answering questions from mister ambassadors.

[kaunitz]

These are just 3 incidences that in my opinion are atributed to this third party that was, and still is operating. Hired by Thaksin, and used by him in the past, to further his agenda. Why was Thaksin so sure the Central World fire was the work of professionals, and not redshirts? I'm pretty sure he doesn't have access to current forensics in Thailand to be so sure it wasn't redshirts.

Interesting questions. I 'suspect' that the blackshirts were at least indirectly financed by Thaksin but that is all. Why would they burn down Central, when the Chirathivat family were on his side while he was in control - say the sacking of the editor of the 'Bangkok Post -' or why would they attempt to burn down channel 3 while there was a Maleenont prominent in Thaksin's Government.

As I heard it was because they did not support Thaksin in his red shirt campaign or even after his ousting as he expected them to. But so far, this is not a confirmed fact.

[beej]

PM answering questions from mister ambassadors.

Huge respect for chairing that meeting, not many would!