Thai staff - carrot or stick?

[PeeMarc]

After many years working and running my own business in Thailand, there seems to be one thing that I find the most annoying and seems to be a widespread problem here - how to get Thai staff to arrive to work on time.

I know that in many companies, if staff are late, they get sent to HR to explain. Some companies fine staff every time they are late, some will just give warnings and then fire them if they keep arriving late.

But in a small company such as mine, we dont have an HR manager. Its left to me.

In the beginning, I really tried everything I could to be nice about it. Nothing worked. 2 years ago, when I had 25 staff, I offered a cash reward of TB5000 for any staff who came to work before 9.30am every day within a month. I was so surprised that the ONLY person who got that cash reward was my loyal maid who actually travels the furthest, has the least salary and has never once been late. For all the others, it made no difference at all.

I have tried so many ways; too many to write here. All my Thai business friends tell me many Thais are just like children and that I am too kind and that I need to use a stick. But I dont want to be that kind of boss or treat adults this way.

Now, I am trying a new way. For each time they arrive after 9.30am, TB200 is deducted for their salary....after 10.30am, TB400 will be deducted.

Surprisingly, after the first week, there is only marginal improvement. So far, each of my staff has lost TB1000 from their salary. Now, of course, I am the arsehole!!!

Right now, I really feel like firing everyone and actually changing the structure of my business and just employing foreigners on freelance basis as needed.

Watching staff who are paid relatively well, stroll in at 11am and then start thinking about lunch is soul destroying for a small business owner.

I'd like to know what Thais think about this and other business owners/managers here.

For Thais (generally) which works better - the 'carrot' (incentives and rewards) or the 'stick' (penalties and threats)?

[CiaranM]

Hire and fire, its the only way.

Work with them for a while, if they are flaky sack them and get another, you'll build a good team after 2-3 years.

I've got a team of about 8-10 that work with me and every one is dependable, on time or even early, honest, and trustworthy.... it took me 7 years to find them, and they never let me down, ever.

On a side not I must have worked with 200 who got the boot.

Thanks mate. As brutal as that is, you are quite right. In Sydney it did take me many years to build a good team around me and its essential to have this in my job.

Here in Thailand, great, reliable talent is much harder to find, or thinner on the ground, so I guess I have compromised a lot because of this. In the end, I lose and my work suffers and its really pissing me off now.

I made the decision today to get out and really look hard for more good people and when i have some I will fire all the team I have now.

depending on how long ur current team have worked for u it could be damm expensive to sack them !!! thai labour courts tend to be sympathetic towards thai employees sacked by farang bosses !!!

There must be some kind of way to hire people on a trail period?

u can employ ppl on probation for 3 months ... but i'm guessing Marc has employed his team for at least a year or more !!! and once they have been there for a year or longer ... it become expensive to fire them !!!

[Teddy]

What kind of staff are you looking for Marc? Obviously ones that turn up on time, but be specific in terms of skills and talent. You never know, once you have gotten through all the jokers on here, you may strike gold.

But I guess its like opening an honey orchard to bees.

[PeeMarc]

What kind of staff are you looking for Marc? Obviously ones that turn up on time, but be specific in terms of skills and talent. You never know, once you have gotten through all the jokers on here, you may strike gold.

But I guess its like opening an honey orchard to bees.

Right now, I cannot employ any more westerners and use quite a few already on project/freelance basis. I need Thai staff. And that is the problem - finding the best ones.

[Crustyjuggler]

Hmm peeMarc, I have met those reliable people, it's not that bad..

I think it's about the job, I think your company is about "commercial arts" right?

if that I think ppl who study about art in Thailand (cuz i never had experience in other countries) Most of them are not early bird, believe me I'm such a weird person for them. Right now I need a good staff to work in my team, but it's damn hard to find cuz they don't like to start working at 8 am. go back home at 5 pm. work from Mon - Fri.

I disagree also, i worked in a creative house in the UK where 170 out of 170 staff started early and finished late... No chance of that here Peemarc as you know.. Hire 5 capable foreigners and sack those lazy Thais..

You give an inch here in and most will take a mile.

Beej, your lot really are the acceptation to the rule but that's hard to achieve in a 'office hours' business as opposed to well looked after freelancers.

[PeeMarc]

Hmm peeMarc, I have met those reliable people, it's not that bad..

I think it's about the job, I think your company is about "commercial arts" right?

if that I think ppl who study about art in Thailand (cuz i never had experience in other countries) Most of them are not early bird, believe me I'm such a weird person for them. Right now I need a good staff to work in my team, but it's damn hard to find cuz they don't like to start working at 8 am. go back home at 5 pm. work from Mon - Fri.

I disagree also, i worked in a creative house in the UK where 170 out of 170 staff started early and finished late... No chance of that here Peemarc as you know.. Hire 5 capable foreigners and sack those lazy Thais..

You give an inch here in and most will take a mile.

Beej, your lot really are the acceptation to the rule but that's hard to achieve in a 'office hours' business as opposed to well looked after freelancers.

agree. I think the idea of "those bohemian artist/creative types keeping odd hours" is not really reality or viable any more.

and also agree about "give and inch..." here in Thailand. Actually I have found that 99% of the time when Im generous and kind hearted to my staff they just get slack, lazy and even demand more! They have a very short or selective memory for all the good things they actually get and can really be brutal when they occasionally miss out on or lose something.

As I've said many times... just like children.

[admin]

Another way you may want to handle it is to hire a Thai manager and instruct that person to be the designated a-hole. Of course, you have to hire someone who will get to work on time :-)

Another thing to consider (based partially on a previous suggestion) is to get a big whiteboard and put it in a common area. Put everyone's name on the board and every day mark down what time they arrive if they are late. Once a week tally up how much salary they're being docked and put that up on the board too.

Let it be a constant reminder to them of how much they're losing. Also the whole face issue is in play as well since everyone will see how much money they've lost.

Of course, it could backfire. Everyone will just try to be just a little less tardy than the biggest offenders :-)

And if you can master it, give 'em the Coffee is for Closers speech from Glenn Gary Glenn Ross. Som Tom is for Closers!

[Chatty]

Hmm peeMarc, I have met those reliable people, it's not that bad..

I think it's about the job, I think your company is about "commercial arts" right?

if that I think ppl who study about art in Thailand (cuz i never had experience in other countries) Most of them are not early bird, believe me I'm such a weird person for them. Right now I need a good staff to work in my team, but it's damn hard to find cuz they don't like to start working at 8 am. go back home at 5 pm. work from Mon - Fri.

I disagree also, i worked in a creative house in the UK where 170 out of 170 staff started early and finished late... No chance of that here Peemarc as you know.. Hire 5 capable foreigners and sack those lazy Thais..

Hey Simon,

It might be because of my bad English, I mean people who study arts in Thailand, or Thai art students. plus I didn't say all of them... cuz i'm the one of them, I didn't talk about you, ok?

but whatever...

Thai people always the sucky ones for you guys... this is call Thailand friends.. lol

[Stramash]

hey; it's another 'Thais suck but we're staying here anyway' thread.

Why not just go the whole hog, send the tanks in, colonise the poor third worlders and erect a massive set of golden arches in the middle of Bangkok.

If Thai staff are that bad, why not **** off home and employ those wonderful staff in your home country?

:evil:

[pandorea]

hey; it's another 'Thais suck but we're staying here anyway' thread.

Why not just go the whole hog, send the tanks in, colonise the poor third worlders and erect a massive set of golden arches in the middle of Bangkok.

If Thai staff are that bad, why not f*ck off home and employ those wonderful staff in your home country?

:evil:

Waiting for Danmarkfriends website to up and run, then I can "say" someting about Dane staffs, and they can tell me to **** off home. (wait a minute, I have been told already but I stay anyway)

[LasseDK]

Another way you may want to handle it is to hire a Thai manager and instruct that person to be the designated a-hole. Of course, you have to hire someone who will get to work on time :-)

Im facing similar problems as PM not in thailand but vn, and this is actually what ive concluded to be the best way of dealing with it, hire a middleman that will be responsible of people meeting on time (among other things).

Instead of spending tonnes of times on alot of people i have to deal with one person and he will be placed in a hot seat with consequences if demands are not met. It also easier as ive been able to to handpick this guy, instead of handpicking 15 new people.

[primetime]

Change the official start time and end time for everyone. That way you will get an honest day's work. Keep moving it earlier and later. Natural selection will soon take over and if it doesn't it is time to fire people.

[primetime]

Lock the door a few hours before closing and don't let anyone go home for a few hours after regular closing time.

[Admin_2]

I've learned here that you get what you pay for...not very much.

I give a lot of room for laziness here more than any other country. I found that deducting money didn't do much. If they are lazy, the will fail no matter what you try to do. Try to be reasonable, understanding, yet firm...and all you will get is no eye contact with "khrub khrub khrub," which is usually a load of crap crap crap.

Give one or two warnings clearly saying that they will get fired if they do it again. Then stick to your word. It's better having a small void that you have to fill yourself rather than a small void that you have to fill yourself that you pay for!

Marc, you told me this yourself: Sitting around and worrying about 10 dollar an hour problems will only keep you from achieving your real goals.

Keep ads running in the papers constantly for new staff, even if you have enough. If someone screws up twice, fire them, wash your hands, and take 10 minutes setting up a few more interviews. Then get back to being efficient (useful).

[drlovelife8]

hey; it's another 'Thais suck but we're staying here anyway' thread.

Why not just go the whole hog, send the tanks in, colonise the poor third worlders and erect a massive set of golden arches in the middle of Bangkok.

If Thai staff are that bad, why not f*ck off home and employ those wonderful staff in your home country?

:evil:

lol, I don't think it a hate the Thai people thread. If you live here ( I don't know if you do or don't) you will see how wise spread this problem is.

As for '**** off back to your own country'

You sound like The BNP Mein Fuhrer lol

[admin]

Change the official start time and end time for everyone. That way you will get an honest day's work. Keep moving it earlier and later. Natural selection will soon take over and if it doesn't it is time to fire people.

Sneak into their homes and set their clocks forward.

[bigKus]

Keep ads running in the papers constantly for new staff, even if you have enough. If someone screws up twice, fire them, wash your hands, and take 10 minutes setting up a few more interviews. Then get back to being efficient (useful).

As i know, keep your recruitment ads running too long / too often is best ruin your company images/reputation. They consider that this company must have something problem which causes high staff turn-over rate.

[PeeMarc]

I've learned here that you get what you pay for...not very much.

I give a lot of room for laziness here more than any other country. I found that deducting money didn't do much. If they are lazy, the will fail no matter what you try to do. Try to be reasonable, understanding, yet firm...and all you will get is no eye contact with "khrub khrub khrub," which is usually a load of crap crap crap.

Give one or two warnings clearly saying that they will get fired if they do it again. Then stick to your word. It's better having a small void that you have to fill yourself rather than a small void that you have to fill yourself that you pay for!

Marc, you told me this yourself: Sitting around and worrying about 10 dollar an hour problems will only keep you from achieving your real goals.

Keep ads running in the papers constantly for new staff, even if you have enough. If someone screws up twice, fire them, wash your hands, and take 10 minutes setting up a few more interviews. Then get back to being efficient (useful).

Agree with you here Rob and yes I too give loads of room for cultural things such as 'kreng jai' etc (which I still believe Thais need to leave out of the business arena) as well as general laziness and slowness compared to other nationalities.

There has been some interesting comments on this thread, and all this week I've been trying to find a solution (amongst a 1000 other things!).

Firstly, if there is one thing I have learned from Thai people and from working and doing business here is that there is always a 'middle path' and this often is the best one (in my experience), not just for the issue at hand, but also for future relationships and opportunities etc.

Secondly, when Western bosses end up in a situation that ends up being a battle of wills, Thais will very often not back down, due to pride or face or whatever. So, whenever we create or have a 'brick wall' situation like this (my will against theirs), Thais will often do unpredictable things and it just ends up blowing everything out of proportion.

My solution is to find a senior, reliable, competent Thai who can manage this situation for me and fire just one key staff member (worst offender) instead of everyone.

This does 2 things:

It creates a layer and healthy distance between me (business owner) and my worker staff. This way my Thai staff can have someone who works more intimately with them and over them. I also have just one point of contact in this new senior person and it becomes their responsibility for all under him/her to manage small issues (10 dollar problems vs 100 dollar problems I should be focusing on). I believe most Thai people work better in a heirachy rather than 'flat' team structure (which i personally prefer).

By firing just one key person, while implementing the management change, sends a clear message to all staff that the company is 'gearing up' and getting more 'serious' about being professional.

Lets see how it goes....

(agree with Kus that continually running ads for staff does more damage than good and makes people think there are problems in the company... word gets around fast in Bkk about these things)

[Teddy]

Another way to **** em up a bit. Grab the worst offender by one leg and one arm, spin him round a few times and throw him through the window. Then shout "....AND STAY OUT!!" turn to the rest of the staff and say "is there anyone else!!!??....thought not!!"

That'll **** em right up.

[funky_house]

I've learned here that you get what you pay for...not very much.

I give a lot of room for laziness here more than any other country. I found that deducting money didn't do much. If they are lazy, the will fail no matter what you try to do. Try to be reasonable, understanding, yet firm...and all you will get is no eye contact with "khrub khrub khrub," which is usually a load of crap crap crap.

Give one or two warnings clearly saying that they will get fired if they do it again. Then stick to your word. It's better having a small void that you have to fill yourself rather than a small void that you have to fill yourself that you pay for!

Marc, you told me this yourself: Sitting around and worrying about 10 dollar an hour problems will only keep you from achieving your real goals.

Keep ads running in the papers constantly for new staff, even if you have enough. If someone screws up twice, fire them, wash your hands, and take 10 minutes setting up a few more interviews. Then get back to being efficient (useful).

Agree with you here Rob and yes I too give loads of room for cultural things such as 'kreng jai' etc (which I still believe Thais need to leave out of the business arena) as well as general laziness and slowness compared to other nationalities.

There has been some interesting comments on this thread, and all this week I've been trying to find a solution (amongst a 1000 other things!).

Firstly, if there is one thing I have learned from Thai people and from working and doing business here is that there is always a 'middle path' and this often is the best one (in my experience), not just for the issue at hand, but also for future relationships and opportunities etc.

Secondly, when Western bosses end up in a situation that ends up being a battle of wills, Thais will very often not back down, due to pride or face or whatever. So, whenever we create or have a 'brick wall' situation like this (my will against theirs), Thais will often do unpredictable things and it just ends up blowing everything out of proportion.

My solution is to find a senior, reliable, competent Thai who can manage this situation for me and fire just one key staff member (worst offender) instead of everyone.

This does 2 things:

It creates a layer and healthy distance between me (business owner) and my worker staff. This way my Thai staff can have someone who works more intimately with them and over them. I also have just one point of contact in this new senior person and it becomes their responsibility for all under him/her to manage small issues (10 dollar problems vs 100 dollar problems I should be focusing on). I believe most Thai people work better in a heirachy rather than 'flat' team structure (which i personally prefer).

By firing just one key person, while implementing the management change, sends a clear message to all staff that the company is 'gearing up' and getting more 'serious' about being professional.

Lets see how it goes....

(agree with Kus that continually running ads for staff does more damage than good and makes people think there are problems in the company... word gets around fast in Bkk about these things)

It might be a good idea to put the word out that someone will get fired for persistent lateness.

Three strikes and you're out. That way it might prevent "unfair dismissal", or legal problems later, if you have given written warnings..

[primetime]

Firstly, if there is one thing I have learned from Thai people and from working and doing business here is that there is always a 'middle path' and this often is the best one (in my experience),

Sounds more like wimping out to me.

[PeeMarc]

Firstly, if there is one thing I have learned from Thai people and from working and doing business here is that there is always a 'middle path' and this often is the best one (in my experience),

Sounds more like wimping out to me.

I would have probably said the same thing, from a very western point of view, before I spent years living here.

[Crustyjuggler]

I noticed on another thread you said you had a Thai business partner (56y).. Can i ask what his take is on the situation with staff?

[PeeMarc]

I noticed on another thread you said you had a Thai business partner (56y).. Can i ask what his take is on the situation with staff?

My Thai partner doesn't get too involved in how I run the company day to day. He supports me in all the accounting, financials, legals and Thai red tape etc (absolutely essential stuff that keeps him very busy). Basically he supports me and clears my way ahead to be free to do my best as much as possible in what I do.

Having said this, he was very much a part of the decisions I made not to fire all my staff and to restructure and looking at the problem differently (as I said earlier in this thread). He is also a master at finding great 'middle path solutions' and continues to teach me so much about dealing with Thai stuff.

His view is that Thais do (in general) work better in an hierarchy and also that they generally need to have more structure and consistency that the average senior Westerner. Often he calls them 'like children'.

It's also easy to blame staff or whoever in situations like this and I know many Westerners will 'knee jerk' with reactions like "useless" "morons" etc..., but it's also essential to check oneself objectively as well to see if there is anything one can change or do differently (or better) that would have positive effects too. My partner is excellent at counseling me in this too.

[Crustyjuggler]

There is clearly a lack of enthusiasm.. You don't see staff striving for higher positions, you don't see competition for positions. What is evident is people prefer to sit and rest on their laurels and wait for promotion to happen on a timely basis of years served. You can argue that this is "Thai way' but it's clearly not working, or is it? I'm sure the top of the hierarchal pile wouldn't have it any other way and why would they when it's so easy to manipulate the masses for personal 'family' growth, power and even more status.

Maybe it's not about laziness but it is certainly about control.. Like controlling a million idiots to disrupt a city this weekend, so easy to do if your one of the Pide Pipers of Thailand (aka elite)

To rest upon one’s laurels: is to expend less effort, to give up striving for new victories, to rely on past success to cover up current failures.

[PeeMarc]

There is clearly a lack of enthusiasm.. You don't see staff striving for higher positions, you don't see competition for positions. What is evident is people prefer to sit and rest on their laurels and wait for promotion to happen on a timely basis of years served. You can argue that this is "Thai way' but it's clearly not working, or is it? I'm sure the top of the hierarchal pile wouldn't have it any other way and why would they when it's so easy to manipulate the masses for personal 'family' growth, power and even more status.

Maybe it's not about laziness but it is certainly about control.. Like controlling a million idiots to disrupt a city this weekend, so easy to do if your one of the Pide Pipers of Thailand (aka elite)

To rest upon one’s laurels: is to expend less effort, to give up striving for new victories, to rely on past success to cover up current failures.

Had these feelings and attitudes many times while living here. The problem is, it doesn't change or help anything and just makes me terribly unhappy inside and actually seems to attract even more deadshits into my life.

Its a long, slow and often tedious process, but continually seeking out excellent people here to have on your 'team' is a must. They do exist and in surprisingly large numbers - those who are honest, hard working, passionate, reliable and great at what they do.

Keep the faith. :wink: